Math: Did we discover or create it?

[ughaibu]

In my first post I was suggesting a similar expectability of these various phenomena, there wasn't a suggestion that those other than maths weren't created. So my latest post wasn't wildly to the point.

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by ughaibu

In my first post I was suggesting a similar expectability of these various phenomena, there wasn't a suggestion that those other than maths weren't created. So my latest post wasn't wildly to the point.

Ughaibu has proposed some very intelligent ideas lately...

Math has ALWAYS been here since the creation/evolution of the Universe.
We, as Humans, found a way to Translate math into understandable and usable system.

to try and answer the threaded question,
we discovered it...

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Racoon

Math has ALWAYS been here since the creation/evolution of the Universe.
We, as Humans, found a way to Translate math into understandable and usable system.

to try and answer the threaded question,
we discovered it...

Opinion... not verifable, amigo. Leave some wiggle room in your statements. If I am mistaken, show me how and support your position.

I chose otherwise... hence, my qualm with the absolutism demonstrated.

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Opinion... not verifable, amigo. Leave some wiggle room in your statements. If I am mistaken, show me how and support your position.

I chose otherwise... hence, my qualm with the absolutism demonstrated.

Just like we didn't create all the atoms and photons either.
They're just there.
Math has been there too, until we uncovered all these formulas.

We discovered the Atom like we discovered Math.
In humble opinion,

The Periodic Table of Elements was there before we had a Periodic Table...

[InfiniteNow]

Well, that certainly is one opinion...

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Racoon

Just like we didn't create all the atoms and photons either.
They're just there.
Math has been there too, until we uncovered all these formulas.

We discovered the Atom like we discovered Math.
In humble opinion,

The Periodic Table of Elements was there before we had a Periodic Table...

In another sense, mathematical and chemical artifacts such as the Pythagorean equation and the Periodic Table mat be defined as purely physical objects, arrangements of atoms of ink and paper in books, of magnetized particles on disk drives, and neurons and chemicals in human brains. That these mathematical and chemical objects describe the very energy and matter of which they are made makes them, though strangely self-referential, none the less physical.

Although it’s arguably likely that similar objects have been created by intelligent creatures elsewhere in the universe, it’s reasonable to assume that at some time in the past, no arrangement of matter/energy existed that corresponded to the Pythagorean equation or any version of the Periodic Table, so, at some specific regions in space-time, they existed for the first time. It’s also reasonable that, at some point in the distant future, no such objects will exist, although the physical phenomena they describe will continue to occur.

Alternately, we may define Math as the phenomena of creating these physical objects – Math notes and publications, and brain configurations embodying mathematical knowledge and understanding.

Regardless of which of these 2 definitions is used, Math is a created artifact, distinct from any physical phenomena it may be used to describe.

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by CraigD

In another sense, mathematical and chemical artifacts such as the Pythagorean equation and the Periodic Table mat be defined as purely physical objects, arrangements of atoms of ink and paper in books, of magnetized particles on disk drives, and neurons and chemicals in human brains. That these mathematical and chemical objects describe the very energy and matter of which they are made makes them, though strangely self-referential, none the less physical.

Math is a truth like other truths.
It is.
Like the Laws of Physics. We discovered them. We did not create them; only in our conceptualization.
As we evolve our understanding, so too may the Math we think we know..?? or don't know

The atom bomb was discovered before it was created.

What came first? the chicken or the egg?

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Racoon

Math is a truth like other truths.
It is.
Like the Laws of Physics. …

There is a critical difference between Math and Physics. Math is equally good at describing physical reality – truth, if you will – and systems not corresponding to physical reality – fantasy, if you will. The Law of Physics must correspond to our best understanding of reality.

The idea that even mathematical ideas explicitly not describing physical reality have a real, objective existence – that they are discovered, not created – is the philosophical school of thought known as Platonic idealism, Greek or Aristotelian formalism, and several other equivalent terms. According to this school, the whole of Physics is less real than the collection of ideas, and all mathematical theorems in all formal systems already exist in the supra-real realm of the Forms.

As Philosophy “seldom affirms, never denies, always distinguishes”, it’s inappropriate to attempt to decide if idealism, or materialism (the position I was expressing in post #86). IMHO, materialism has fewer problems, and is more practically useful and emotionally satisfying than idealism, in much the same way that academic Math and Science is more satisfying than academic Philosophy.

[ughaibu]

CraigD: Diogenes Laertius claims that Greek thought divided into two basic "schools", one following Pythagoras and the other Anaximander. In Diogenes' classification, Plato appears in the Anaximander lineage, ie at variance with Pythagoras. What, if anything, do you think Diogenes felt were the distinguishing features in the relationships of mathematics with a supposed reality espoused by Pythagoras and Plato?

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by CraigD

There is a critical difference between Math and Physics. Math is equally good at describing physical reality – The Law of Physics must correspond to our best understanding of reality.

The idea that even mathematical ideas explicitly not describing physical reality have a real, objective existence – that they are discovered, not created – is the philosophical school of thought known as Platonic idealism,

You're a tough nut to crack CraigD
I suppose you are right.
I was thinking Math has been around before we consciencely called it "Math"
like:
E = MC^2 was part of the Universal structure/disorder before Einstein flashed upon the equation while pondering dust particles in the window light.
It had been there all along.
Now Einstein could translate that small phenomena to paper using numbers and symbols

The thread is a poll asking whether created or discovered?
my philosophical response was discovered.
It took brilliance and hard work absolutely to bring Math to the level and understanding it is today.
That was/is definitely created.