Photon overtakes photon

[Ver]

Hello
I realise the thread title is against "the law" but I see a conflict with the title under certain conditions.
I just need to confirm a couple of my photon behavior beliefs and hope to have these steps confirmed by someone else.
A photon on the event horizon- with a totaly vertical trajectory going out- will stop on the event horizon (Unstable yes but I believe that is accepted) We know it is going at c- all examples go at c local spacetime.
We start another photon at a slightly higher altitude to the event horizon at the same vertical trajectory and this time the photon manages to marginaly make headway towards the photon sphere.
We start again at the same altitude as before but this time we introduce a marginal variation from vertical enough to reduce the marginal headway but still make headway obviously-this time not as much headway as before. (headway--is altitude)
One more photon from the same altitude again with marginaly more of an angle away from vertical as the previous example only this time it does not make headway out towards the photon sphere but remains on the same line of altitude it started at.
Yes this is all unstable like a photon in the photon sphere but it is there-- no altitude gain.
Now It is clear in my mind but what do you think will happen to the photon in that last example and why.
Hopefuly we can get to the thread title from there.
regards Dave R

[arkain101]

Is it proven there is even electromagnetic radiation emmited from a black hole?

Would it be possible that the matter has collapsed and becomes unifed mass?

when released through the poles, then manifests into essential star dust?

[GAHD]

yeah-hunh. Somehow I doubt it. the photon 'orbiting' continues orbiting, and has it's own share of destructive and constructive interfearance happening at any given time. It still continues to operate normaly for it's surroundings as a wave&particle.

[Ver]

Hi Gahd and Arcain 101

Originally Posted by GAHD

yeah-hunh. Somehow I doubt it. the photon 'orbiting' continues orbiting, and has it's own share of destructive and constructive interfearance happening at any given time. It still continues to operate normaly for it's surroundings as a wave&particle.

I think Gahd is on the right wavelength- the photon orbiting and continues orbiting. and as I have said in the post-- as unstable as a photon in the photon sphere and as Gahd says---> it has its own share of destructive and constructive interference happening at any given time-- for sure Gahd I agree-- no more no less than in the photon sphere. I do understand the constructive effects of a photon knocked into orbit and vice versa.
One more thing-> It still continues to operate normaly for its surroundings as a waveparticle-- For sure Gahd -- I did stress -->all examples go at c- local spacetime.
I think you are very close to believing that photons natural tendency to
orbit even though you doubt it-- it is "against the rules also" as a couple of our learned friends have told me without trying to follow my description. The stalled photon has a circumferential speed of zero-- it goes at c local spacetime- If you would just slowly follow the steps and tell me where it breaks down or have the orbit clear in your mind and then we can progress. Have a go at the steps Arcain 101-
Winterpeg eh!!-- NZ will do me for now!!
regards Dave R

[wavelength?]

so do you think its the warping of space time [the warping is the byproduct of matter repelling spacetime] that allows the photon to stay in the photon sphere? i could see this if the spacetime repelling force was large enough to create a zone absent of spacetime, beginning at the event horizon. there, the forces pulling from within could not interact with the photon because it has no charge and there it would sit until a more energetic particle interacted. it could also orbit if there were enough spacetime to counteract the velocity of the photon.

[Ver]

Hi wavelength.
I believe the photon you refer to is the one on the event horizon-not the photon sphere.
>so do you think its the warping of space time [the warping is the byproduct of matter repelling spacetime] that allows the photon to stay in the photon sphere
The photon is trying to escape from the level of the event horizon by going out at c in a precisely vertical trajectory. The event horizon- singularity is dragging it back in at c so they cancel out and the photon remains- unmoving. to us as outside observers the photon is not moving at all. If we move in next to the photon-- its local spacetime-- it moves at c. Accepted law I believe.
The photon sphere is the maximum altitude from the event horizon that a photon can continuously orbit although it will be extreemly unstable. It too will have a local spacetime and an apparent speed to an outside observer.
The photon sphere at present is accepted as an orbit sphere for photons. there are no closed orbits closer other than for a photon knocked into orbit by collision. I believe there are orbits-- unstable yes but able to form a closed orbit from the photon sphere right down to close to the event horizon. If so there are strange consequences.
Just follow my step by step description of photon behaviour all very close to the event horizon and see how the orbit has formed or tell me precisely the point at which I have made a mistake. I am leading to a conflict with the thread title hopefully as well as an acceptance of infinate orbit levels between the event horizon and the photon sphere.
regards Dave R

[GAHD]

let me put it another way; once outside of the event horison, the photon will eventualy(even if it takes several billion years and it gets stretched into sub infrared from high gamma) climb up and out. Once at or inside the event horison, "Up" is the exact same direction as "Down". That's the standard interpritation so far.

I find it kinda hard to swalow too, along with the connected math that as space becomes more linear(towards sigularity) time becomes less linear.

[erKa]

Originally Posted by GAHD

let me put it another way; once outside of the event horison, the photon will eventualy(even if it takes several billion years and it gets stretched into sub infrared from high gamma) climb up and out. Once at or inside the event horison, "Up" is the exact same direction as "Down". That's the standard interpritation so far.

I find it kinda hard to swalow too, along with the connected math that as space becomes more linear(towards sigularity) time becomes less linear.

But lotta energy is required to climb on photons from iR to out. Who pay the toll? This is out of 2nd Law of Thermodynamics....consequently if "down" is totally allowable the "climb up" must be defined in different other ways. If possible, obviously.

[Ver]

Hi

Quote Gahd
>once outside of the event horison, the photon will eventualy(even if it takes >several billion years and it gets stretched into sub infrared from high >gamma) climb up and out.
Once outside-- do you mean it has managed to get out. we know that is not possible.
Lets put one outside- from an object falling in and close to the event horizon.
If it leaves the object and manages to gain even the slightest amount of altitude- it will go out and will accellerate at each altitude level relative to R-s. Having initialy gained altitude it means it has reached the escape angle for the altitude it left from.
Lets take a photon- outside once again- leaving an object going in and heading out towards R-s 1.5 only this time it does not quite gain any altitude at this point it has obviously not reached the escape angle required-- it will enter R-s- finito.
Hi Erka.
If we talk of energy to get out-- climb out. The maximum force slowing down the photon is at R-s--it will sit on R-s happily only with a vertical trajectory--unstable yes-- but no toll to pay that I can see. It travells at c same as anywhere else-local spacetime. Relative to an outside observer and R-s it is stationary.
How about applying any doubts directly to the steps in my original post. I do need to confirm those steps or have any step logicaly disproven or we will end up within R-s .
regards Dave R

[Ver]

Just a note
>Once at or inside the event horison, "Up" is the exact same direction as "Down". That's the standard interpritation so far.
If you are at the event horizon up is your only chance of escaping if we take up as a gain in altitude.
regards Dave R