Technical knowledge transfer

[FrankM]

When mathematical and scientific information is discussed on this forum, it is generally provided in textual
and symbolic form. I recognize that our mathematics and scientific theory has been developed over an
extended period of time that included many languages and numeric systems. The symbolic system we use
to present mathematical and scientific information requires the use of references to know exactly what
is meant.

The wave formula, f = c / L (where L represents lambda), is the representation of a scientific
principle using symbolic language. However, the symbols would be meaningless by themselves unless
one understood the mathematical notation, and still meaningless if f, c and L are not described somewhere.
c in itself is a complex definition, it has a numeric value and it is expressed in meters per second,
and those terms would have to be defined.

Can complex mathematical and scientific concepts be presented without a textual reference or a symbolic
language? Once you think about it, I am sure one or more methods will come to mind.

[Uncle Martin]

Wouldn't binary be as close to a universally understood language as we can get?

[Bo]

To describe the world mathematics (or logic in a general sense) is a powerfull language, what numerical system you use is of no real importance; it doesnt change the physical interpretation of the formulas. The reason we use mathematics is i think twofold: 1) if you want to write down very accurate what you want to say, you need a language that allows simple, exact, unambigious interpretation. Only mathematics has that. 2) If you want to see the exact results of some 'discovery' you need to be able to manipulate your results in such a way that you are guarenteed that your initial information isn't lost/altered. Once again only mathematics has this property. -Bo

[Uncle Martin]

What if SETI received a signal loaded with information, as in the movie "Contact". Without knowing the value of any of their symbols, even if the message contained all the answers we seek, it would be useless. I know almost nothing of cryptography, would we be able to decipher such a message?

[Bo]

i dont think we would be able to decipher it; that is: if it is just words. But most probably the words would be accompanied by pictures (even mankind was that genius...) and then.. well maybe?

[FrankM]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin
Wouldn't binary be as close to a universally understood language as we can get?

Binary is an extremely abstract language that requires extensive references to be able to interpret, and
there are many forms of binary.

binary

If you found a stone monument with the following inscription it could not be interpreted without a table of
conversions, and even then you would not know if it was meant to represent just a number or something
else.

10010100110111101100101

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: FrankM
Can complex mathematical and scientific concepts be presented without a textual reference or a symbolic language? Once you think about it, I am sure one or more methods will come to mind.

Well first 10010100110111101100101 is "Joe "

http://www.knitlist.com/binary_process.htm


But actually, no, if you remove symbolic language (to which I would include "textual reference" as part of it's set) , I see no way to commuicate ANYTHING.

"Language" includes non-verbal as well as verbal symbolic communications. There is Sign language, Body Language and such.

The only non-symbolic language communications process I can imagine is ESP. And well...

[Uncle Martin]

C'mon Frank, you obviously have some thoughts on this. Please share them with us.

[IrishEyes]

Unc said...
What if SETI received a signal loaded with information, as in the movie "Contact". Without knowing the value of any of their symbols, even if the message contained all the answers we seek, it would be useless. I know almost nothing of cryptography, would we be able to decipher such a message?

Finally, a technical question that I can answer with a degree of certainty...After spending 10 years doing cryptography, cryptology and cryptographic analysis, I can say... oh man! I'm not supposed to say, am I? LOL

Unc, I am fairly certain that we could handle it. Computer programs that have been developed in the past decade search for things like repeating patterns, and many other things that I can't specifically state, but I'm sure FreeT is aware of, Things are not quite as flashy as Hollywood would like you to believe, but I was amazed at the stuff I learned when working at a non-existent agency near Baltimore. Tom Clancy has nothing on the real thing!

[Uncle Martin]

Too bad so much of it is classified. You could teach me how to find the password to the moderators forum. I'm the curious type and it's driving me nuts wondering what you are discussing there all by yourselves.