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Old 11-23-2004   #31 (permalink)
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what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

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Originally posted by: Tormod
Quote:
Originally posted by: Freethinker
I think it might be more accurate to refer to the Event Horizon as a "Boundary", not a "surface".
I did not say the event horizon has a surface. The black hole has a "surface", the event horizon is the boundary which Blame correctly labeled the "point of no return". I think however that for all practical purposes they are one and the same.
I just have a problem with using the word "surface" to symbolize the "boundary" point of the Event Horizon, just as I would to symbolize the Terminal Shock point of transition for the solar system. There is no physical layer to detect as one would connect to a "surface". It is a distance at which interactions are changed. e.g. the Earth has a "surface" which is easily definable, while a Country has a boundary which is not. You KNOW where the earth's surface is at any one point on it. While you may only know where a Country's Boundary is only know if an effect is experienced at some point which is different from the previous point. Perhaps by being shot at?


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Old 11-23-2004   #32 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

Yeah, I see your argument, and not having seen a black hole I am hard pressed to say you are wrong.

But would you say that the sun has a surface? Where does the sun's gravity field end, and where is the "point of no return" for anything that falls towards it?


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Old 11-23-2004   #33 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

Yes I would say the Sun does have a "surface". Being gaseous, it may not fit the "hard" def of Earth's. But it is obvious it has a "substance" of which it is made and defined.

I am not aware of a PoNR for the Sun. Yes any substance we know of would be destroyed at some point before reaching the surface, but as far as I am aware some particles can still pass thru and light obviously is NOT captured by it.


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Old 11-25-2004   #34 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

The Sun has no event horizon in its present state. As for gravity its field drops off following the normal 1/r^2 rule. In essence, while getting weaker as one goes outward, its field extends towards infinity, so to speak, the same as an EM field does. The sun has a surface. The event horizon of a blackhole is not an actual surface at all. It's a point of no return beyond which something would have to exceed the speed of light to escape. Its not composed of matter in the common meaning of such and is simply a horizon as far as observation goes. The gravity field of a Blackhole like every other gravity field extends far further out than its own body itself. The Hawking radiation(Virtual particles) that escape from this event horizon do so by quantum tunneling which is a known shortcut path through spacetime itself. One virtual particle at the event horizon can borrow enough energy to become a real particle. That particle escapes while its twin does not. The timing of this escape via quantum effects is shorter in duration than light speed allows along normal paths. So is essence via a quantum path such a particle does exceed the escape velocity of the event horizon. But it does so by a quantum allowed path that at macroscopic scales is not allowed. Also, this type of event takes place right at the horizon itself. So in essence, the virtual particle made real that escapes has never really been inside that horizon. Its been at that horizon and the small path difference allowed under quantum theory is all the boost it needs to escape. The escape velocity right at the boundary of the event horizon itself is C, beyond that point its greater than C.
Old 11-25-2004   #35 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

Thought that might help clarify things a bit here. An accelerated observer has a simular event horizon. From that horizon one gets something known as Unruh radiation. That horizon is an artifact of C and the craft's own aceleration. It too is not a real surface. Its an observational boundary is all.
Old 11-26-2004   #36 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

paultrr

Sadly Unruh radiation is not known to me! Perhaps you could give references, or an explanation.
Old 11-26-2004   #37 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

It was shown by Unruh and by Paul Davies that an accelerating detector will experience a Planckian-like heat bath. W.G. Unruh Phys. Rev., D: 14 (1976) 870 would be about the best. However, if you can get a copy of Lee Smolin's Book, Three Roads to Quantum Gravity, there is a good explination of this effect in that book.
Old 11-26-2004   #38 (permalink)
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RE: what is black hole made out of and what does a black hole "experience"?

Some links on both:

Casimir effect

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/6 and

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...m/casimir.html and

Unruh effect

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/np...r.qc....12078M and

http://relativity.livingreviews.org/...1-6/node3.html and

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9408019 and


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