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Old 01-27-2007   #121 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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Originally Posted by hardkraft View Post
The photon does not experience anything because it's not a scentient being. I know it's just a thought experiment but it's better to have experiments that are closer to reality.
The question is really more philosophical in nature, however, Infy did preface by saying "let's just say it's so for purposes of this thought experiment." Since you have now countered by stating, as fact, that photons do not experience anything, with no such qualifier, I'd ask you to support your claim. I took Infy's proposal not as a representation of true reality, but a way to simplify the experiment in hopes of achieving understanding elsewhere.

One cannot ride a photon either, but that never stopped Einstein from using it as a tool for visualization.

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...from the view point of a photon created at the Big Bang itself, no time has passed what-so-ever. Incredible as that may sound, if you could have hitched a ride on one of those first photons created at the Big Bang, you would have experienced no passage of time since you first left...One could surmise that, at least from the perspective of this photon, no time would have passed between it's creation and the end of the universe. ...This raises an unusual question. From the view point of this photon, is the past, the present, and the future are all rolled into one?
I struggle accepting the deterministic implications, as well as the math used to describe it, but Infinite Now may apply to more than just photons.


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Old 01-27-2007   #122 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

I don't feel edgy at all hardkraft, I'm just struggling to keep up! Anyhow, you just can't show me those slices, and you can't show me any travelling through them. If I struggle to refute them, well, I struggle to refute magic too. Re formulae, I haven't mentioned any, but if you're talking concepts, IMHO taking the time out of spacetime makes it much easier to understand mass and gravity. As regards the photon, time doesn't pass for the photon, but events still happen to it. The photon is emitted, it wibbles its way across space, it gets bent going past a sun, then it gets reflected, then it gets absorbed, all in no time flat as far as the photon is concerned. Things change, things move, but you don't need time for things to change and move. They just do, then people invent "time is a length" out of that.

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Old 01-27-2007   #123 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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As regards the photon, time doesn't pass for the photon, but events still happen to it. The photon is emitted, it wibbles its way across space, it gets bent going past a sun, then it gets reflected, then it gets absorbed, all in no time flat as far as the photon is concerned. Things change, things move, but you don't need time for things to change and move. They just do, then people invent "time is a length" out of that.
See, this is the primary contention you've made that I fail to agree with. No time, no motion. Simple really.

Things change. Across what? The medium of that change is time. No time, no motion.

Things move. Across what? The medium of that movement is space. No space, no motion.

Space and time are one in the same, in fact, an single something called spacetime.


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Old 01-27-2007   #124 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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The question is really more philosophical in nature, however, Infy did preface by saying "let's just say it's so for purposes of this thought experiment."
I said that I understand that it is only a thought experiment but when thought experiments are too simple and idealized they might distort the true picture. My example with the rocket is almost the same but is more "real" enabling us to be more realistic with asking questions. For example when a rocket crashes into a planet it slows down even if it's a fraction of a second. The same does not happen to a photon.

Popular, I understand that things are happening all around but what happens from the point of view of the traveller? Let's take my rocket experiment which I feel more comfortable with. Relativity tells us that a moving frame has a different sense of reality from the outside world. But those realites sometimes meet and need to be reconciled. How does it happen from the rocket's point of view? What happens when the rubber hits the road?
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Old 01-27-2007   #125 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

So, I will take that to mean you cannot support your claim that photons do not experience anything. Now, back on topic...
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Old 01-27-2007   #126 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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So, I will take that to mean you cannot support your claim that photons do not experience anything. Now, back on topic...
I assume so and I trust most will agree that my assumption is not unreasonable. We can take a poll "Do you believe photons have feelings or have experiences?"

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Old 01-27-2007   #127 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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I assume so and I trust most will agree that my assumption is not unreasonable. We can take a poll "Do you believe photons have feelings or have experiences?"
Still, neither belief nor popularity make truth. We would first need an adequate definition of experience, an adequate definition of existence.


“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” --Friedrich Nietzsche
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Old 01-27-2007   #128 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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I assume so and I trust most will agree that my assumption is not unreasonable. We can take a poll "Do you believe photons have feelings or have experiences?"
I think you're reading too much into the definition of experience hardkraft. All particles interact with their surroundings and therefore, in very simple terms, they experience an existence relative to enviornmental stimuli. In no way am I suggesting that the photon possesses a rudimentary conscouisness of any sort. Hopefully this will clear up any confusion you've had about the direction I was taking this thought experiment. Likewise, I would appreciate it if you would not suggest otherwise......................................... ..Infy


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Old 01-27-2007   #129 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

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So, I will take that to mean you cannot support your claim that photons do not experience anything. Now, back on topic...
Let me give this a try.

In recent contemplation I have found some interesting reasonings.

Whether or not the scientific communitty decides to continue using an object as a fundamental element to the universe, the questions of where it came from and what that object is made of will never go away.

Even if the universe was made of strings, these strings are not connected to eachother. There isnt baby strings that permiate outwards like photons to show other strings baby strings to show where those strings are. The strings are lone universes. Try to measure a universe where there is nothing but your ability to reason in that enviroment. The string has no reference points to generate measurement.

Assume for a moment that a photon really is a particle. In what way does it have to communicate to others to generate a sense of meaning and measureable behavior? If it is a lone particle connected to nothing then it is its own meaningless un-measureable universe of infinite possibility.

How can you measure it when you need one to measure it to observe what it looks like, and each photon is an invisible thing? You can not attribute anything to its shape, or give it meaning. No model will suffice that has material expectation.

The photon is suggested to reside in an infinite universe. Infinite is that of no value, invisible, zero, uncertain...

If and when photons hit eachother, relative to themselves (a nothing universe) they pass through another nothingness. Two blanks passing through eachother. There is only one thing you can assign to each supposed photon universe, and that is a value or number.

"The fine-structure constant or Sommerfeld fine-structure constant, usually denoted , is the fundamental physical constant characterizing the strength of the electromagnetic interaction. It is a dimensionless quantity, and thus its numerical value is independent of the system of units used."




There by, any interactions requires at least parity of photons, and the compound formations of measurments created by their behavior that an asigned value gives to them.

Everything observable is a quantized event. A type of reasoning formed by interactions of at least a minimum of two so called fundamental things.

As described something fundamental like a photon does not experience anything because it is not a thing, it only generates behaviors when passing through itself that can be observed by becoming an able observer of those quantum events.
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Old 01-27-2007   #130 (permalink)
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Re: TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

That's why I say in thought experiments stick to what you know and can make reasonable assumtions as much as possible. Since I don't know photon psychology or physiology I can't tell whether they have any experiences. If I used them in a thought experiment I would use their ability to travel realy fast or have different wavelengths but stay away from their ability of having feelings and experiences which I have no way knowing anything about (phew, a long one) If however it was a human being traveling at the speed of light I could say pretty confidently that he would not have any experiences not even of himself. For any experience/thought to occur an electric impulse needs to travel a distance which takes time which is lacking. And that's something others can talk about since we all share human physiology but have no clue about photonian.
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