Guantanamo Bay: Shame on you, United States

[ErlyRisa]

Somebody please bring up David Hicks...

--funny how the left would actually rather see him incacerated indefinately ... gives them something to talk about -> but now what can they say?, bet ya he don't have line up at the dole cue.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Americans, please do the World a favour and stop worrying about the rest of us. Save yourselves first.

How about this for an innovative approach?

Tackling Indonesian terror
Background Briefing - 23 December 2007 - Tackling Indonesian terror

Listen Now - 23122007 |Download Audio - 23122007

In a first for the international media, Bali bomber Ali Imron is let out of prison to explain why he's now working to stop terrorism.
In this exclusive interview, Ali Imron tells of how he's battling with his radical brothers to prevent further violence.
It's just one part of Indonesia's ground breaking and controversial counter terrorism strategy. Reporter: Di Martin. (Originally broadcast 23rd September 2007)

Di Martin: Muslims inspired to acts of brutality by an extreme understanding of their faith. They are the violent jihadists, carrying out a Holy War against anyone who doesn't share their hardline views.

While the rest of the world struggles to respond to this new era of Islamic terrorism, Indonesia stands as a striking example of successfully containing terror.
. . .
Now, not only are they extremely committed to tracking down and finding the people who are responsible for violence, but they also understand they've got to deal with a network. So they've been very, very good about every time they do one set of arrests, they get these people, sit them down, by and large don't torture them, but then try to extract information about every aspect of the network that these people were involved in.

Di Martin: It's been a stunning transformation. From a force known as either incompetent or corrupt, Indonesia's police are now the toast of the anti-terror circuit.

There's no doubt that Indonesia's police can take credit for this success
. . .There's new police units, new equipment, offices and vehicles, and some state-of-the-art forensic facilities provided by Australia.
. . .
Di Martin: After dramatic successes locking up the terrorists, police are now pursuing another major strategy.

Deradicalisation, or convincing the terrorists to give up violence.

There's growing pressure to get results in this area. Some terrorists have already served out their jail time, and there are fears they'll reoffend.

What happens when you eventually have to let out the guys at GB?
you might expect them to be alittle anoyed about the USA?

Nasir Abas: Yeah, because people can have a different understanding about Qur'an. But the history, the life of Prophet Muhammad, there is no different understanding of the history.

Di Martin: Tell us about the process. Can you give us an example.

Nasir Abas: Yes. The process is personal approach. Keep in touch. Always come and talking, caring.

Di Martin: Being concerned about them?

Nasir Abas: Yes, being concerned about them. That is the first because people can accept you if you're concerned with them.

Di Martin: So you're establishing trust?

Nasir Abas: Correct. Yeah, that is the first step. So next, I start to talk and discuss about what they did, how they can be arrest, why they involved with the groups, what is their reason to do the operation or to do the violence. So what am I doing, I just influence them, back to the life of Prophet Muhammad, the true Islamic practice.

Di Martin: Nasir Abas is working with some very hard cases. Like the man who beheaded three Christian schoolgirls in central Sulawesi two years ago. The man's name is Hasanuddin, and on arrest he demanded to see Nasir Abas.

Nasir Abas: The first question is to him "Why you have been arrested?", and he said, 'Beheading case'. So I said, God forgive me. I ask him why did you do that? He said, Revenge! Revenge against the Christian community.

Di Martin: This is tied up with the very terrible sectarian conflict in Poso in Central Sulawesi?

Nasir Abas: OK, I say, Revenge? What is your reason to do revenge? And he said he talked about two verses of the Holy Qur'an. He's saying the verses, I knew it already. I say, OK, you use the verses to justify your operation. That is not your ideas. That is the ideas of Osama bin Laden. Because Osama bin Laden used those verses to justify what he did. He say that now today it is a law for the Muslim to kill civilians or military Americans

.

BTW racoon we still can't laugh about the Bali Bombings just as you no doubt can't laugh about 9/11

[questor]

For those of you who hate, envy, criticise, and deplore the USA, why don't you take care of your own part of the world so we can concentrate on taking care of ours? I, for one American, am tired of interceeding with money and military everytime some country gets attacked by the bad guys. Why should America always have to ride to the rescue of people who after being saved, then turn on us and ask for more money or criticise us because we don't meet their idea of perfection? If you don't like us or our government, fine! Take care of yourself, don't line up at the money trough, fight your own battles, refuse our aid, and if you don't like our democracy, live with your own system ---we will be able to survive!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Can't trust our govt.
Can't trust the courts
Can't trust the police

We're spied on and screwed over by the govt. Our constitution and electoral process are merely window dressing. The police are either out to get you or want nothing to do with you. And If you want justice in our court system ya better have mucho deenero.

I wish to god the facade would crumble
that those that live here would shed their blinders and realise just how bad it's gotten and will get if corrective measures are not taken.
AND most importantly realise that the people we allow to hold office over us represent us to the world.

Looking at how our nation has handled things I'm surprised that the rest of the world hasn't threatened to wup our @$$e$!

It would be soooooooooooooo nice if the U.N. held war crimes trials in which Mr. Bush and his cohorts faced prosecution for their actions for their involvment in the war as well as lying to the world to justify them.

Followed by criminal charges for all that Uncle Sam has done to the American people...yup that's what we need... HELP....Come on world America (well what's left of it) needs you....If a govt. won't listen to it's own people and interacts with the rest of the world in a beligerant manner it's the rest of the world's job to put it back in it's place and punish those responcible!!! -D.d.

See what I mean....Too many "Americans" are going around wearing blinders...neck deep in $#!+ and don't realise just how f##ked up our country is!!!!!!!

Americans, please do the World a favour and stop worrying about the rest of us. Save yourselves first. -Boerseun

Sorry B. but things have been so fkd up for so long that we're pretty much beyond the point of being able to save ourselves...

[HydrogenBond]

The torture at Guantanamo Bay is light weight in the world of torture. It is as humane as one can get and still get the results one needs. For example, how about being tied to a chair and punched in the face and body until knocked out, then awakened, so they can do it again and again. There is a torture with knives such as skinning alive or the death of a thousand cuts. How about hammering the toes and fingers onto a concrete floor so they can become pancakes. Don't forget about electroshock. There is bamboo up the finger nails and toe nails and in the food. Fire and hot metal objects are very painful. How about adding bolt cutters, electric drills and saws. One can also use chemical torture with acids and boiling tar. There are also neural chemical treatments like a bad LSD trip that can be made much worse with extra props. Pulling live teeth without pain killers is not fun. There is also sinking one into water with weights and pulling you up after you drown a few times. That is why it is called Club Gitmo. The worse thing they do is water boarding. It is affective and leaves no permanent damage like the rest of the above. One has to remember torture only happens if you don't talk. They are given the choice talk or the water ride. Many chose the ride.

Don't get me wrong I am not for torture. But in war it is torture when an enemy sniper rips your stomach open with a bullet or blows off a leg with a land mine, etc. If one was in Club Gitmo and they offered you a menu of all the above tortures and one had to chose one off the menu, or they would chose for you, water boarding would be in the top two choices. I would pick that, whimp out in the first minute and enjoy Club Gitmo's facilities. This particular torture also offers a way for soldiers to not be seen as traitors by their peers, without inflecting no real permanent damage.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

H.B.

"wimping out" will only work if you give them the answers they want to hear...at which point they'd probably "gently persuade" you to admitting to other things you haven't done, heard, or seen to further their justification of their horrendous acts.


Generally speaking most people would rather talk than suffer but if you ain't got the answers ya ain't got em. (again of course you could lie and face execution as a war criminal and a terrorist!)

[REASON]

I can't believe what I'm reading.

It's like -

We don't have to feel guilty because we only do fun torture. Being drowned several times is no big deal. And we only do it when they don't tell us what we want to hear. If they don't tell us what we what we want to hear, drowning them several times will make them, and than we finally have the truth we were looking for. It doesn't matter if they actually know anything, or participated in any wrongdoing, simulated drowning gets results!

Come on HB, you're far too smart to believe this non-sense.

Has it not been demonstrated that torturing prisoners yields unreliable information? Would you not tell your torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop? What makes you so positive that the people we are holding are even guilty of anything.....because our government claims they did? What if they're wrong? Is this the standard for the treatment of prisoners that we are willing to regress? Would you have the same cavalier attitude knowing that your son or daughter were being treated this way while being held prisoner in some foreign land?

Who have we become? Why are we no longer better than this?

Are people who rationalize and defend this policy doing so in order to not have to take any responsibilty for the actions of those for whom they voted.....in defense of their political party?

Are these Christian values? What would Jesus do?

Doesn't this make us just like the so called "evildoers."

We are left with no credibility as purveyors of democracy.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Originally Posted by REASON

I can't believe what I'm reading.

It's like -

We don't have to feel guilty because we only do fun torture. Being drowned several times is no big deal. And we only do it when they don't tell us what we want to hear. If they don't tell us what we what we want to hear, drowning them several times will make them, and than we finally have the truth we were looking for. It doesn't matter if they actually know anything, or participated in any wrongdoing, simulated drowning gets results!

Has it not been demonstrated that torturing prisoners yields unreliable information? Would you not tell your torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop? What makes you so positive that the people we are holding are even guilty of anything.....because our government claims they did? What if they're wrong? Is this the standard for the treatment of prisoners that we are willing to regress? Would you have the same cavalier attitude knowing that your son or daughter were being treated this way while being held prisoner in some foreign land?

Who have we become? Why are we no longer better than this?

Are people who rationalize and defend this policy doing so in order to not have to take any responsibilty for the actions of those for whom they voted.....in defense of their political party?

Are these Christian values? What would Jesus do?

Doesn't this make us just like the so called "evildoers."

We are left with no credibility as purveyors of democracy.

Thank you.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by questor

For those of you who hate, envy, criticise, and deplore the USA, why don't you take care of your own part of the world so we can concentrate on taking care of ours? I, for one American,

Quite right, I sympathise and understand your attitude.

But I don't hate the States, I respect and admire it. But I am finding that increasingly hard to do as you trash your ethics. My experiences with individual Americans have always been friendly, generous and cordial. If at times shallow.

If I go to a restaurant and have a lousy meal, and don't intend coming back, I say nothing.
If I like the restaurant I give them a 'blow by blow' on what was wrong with the meal. this hopefully will make it a better restaurant. It is difficult and sometimes stressful to give such feedback and I will not bother unless I think it might be worthwhile.

America is in a special place in the world community having made itself the "world's policeman" so it needs to listen to constructive criticism from the world community. Too often criticism and feedback from others in the world is just negated- as you have now- as "Yank -haters." and ignored.

The criticism is made because we are concerned about a friend.

[Boerseun]

Simply put, if the US carries on with these practices, the terrorists have won.