Quran

[orbsycli]

I know nothing about the Quran.
My father is a republican. He tells me the Quran tells them to kill us.
Has anyone read the Quran?
Does it say anything anywhere about killing white people .. ?
How did he ever come to this assumption if he's (obviously) never even read it.
What did the media say?

I'm very curous and confused and looking forward to your rants.

[sanctus]

I haven't read it, but a very good friend of mine is muslim and a strong believer (i.e. does the Ramadan even during exams). Well he is a friend of mine so it doesn't seem he wants to kill anyone! It is all a matter of interpretation just like the bible led to crusades... So tell your father he should inform himself a bit better (like for example you are doing), before saying such xenophobe things and putting all in one!

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

Does it say anything anywhere about killing white people .. ?

Absolutely nothing. Nothing about "white people" at all. I doubt the Prophet had even met any white people or had much to do with them.

What it does talk about is Jihad, which means struggle, or strife, meant toward improvement and spreading the Word and defending people's right to practice religion. Especially Islam, of course, but it being compulsory is a misconception; the Qur'an says faith cannot be imposed. It does talk about unjust governments, meaning ones that prevent people from practicing Islam and living by its principles. It contemplates the use of weapons against such governments and their guards, but explicitly forbids damaging civilians and their property in the fight. Strictly, one could well argue that terrorism is an offence according to it.

[eric l]

There is a lot of difference between what the Quran says and what the various Quran schools say that the Quran says.
Other religions have the same problem, and each school in any religion pretends that its truth is truer than any other.

[orbsycli]

interesting...thank you

[DougF]

I curious about this myself and just picked up two links that might help.
Haven't had a good look see but judge for thy self.
Definition of the Islamic religion accepting the Quran as the only reference. Quranic Researh Group
Quran Miracles.
let me know if there are any help to you.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

I know nothing about the Quran. … Has anyone read the Quran?

That depends on what you mean by “read”. I’ve read parts of it totaling a few percent of the total, in English translation. Nearly everyone I’ve spoken with agrees it looses much in translation, being poetically flowing in its original, archaic Arabic, but it’s unlikely I’ll ever know more than a little conversational modern Arabic, let alone the difficult version of the language used in the Quaran. My reading of the Bible, with which far more English-speaking people are familiar, is similarly in English translation. I’ll likely never have the mastery of ancient Hebrew or Greek to read the original texts. Although I have read the entire Bible, I did so in my youth, in a guided setting, and my retention of it is poor.

So, if pressed for a simple answer, I’d say “yes” to “have you read the Bible”, and “no” to “have you read the Quaran”.

It’s important, I think, to understand that even modern Arabic speakers find the Quaran difficult to read, much as English speakers find English translations of the Bible difficult to read.

My father is a republican. He tells me the Quran tells them to kill us.
Does it say anything anywhere about killing white people .. ?

To the best of my knowledge, there’s no reference to white people, or much of any strong racial references, in the Quaran. Considering that Muhammad strove to unite people who in his time and to this day consider themselves racially separate under a common religion, this makes sense – when seeking to grow a religion, it’s not wise to exclude possible converts based on perceived race.

The Quaran does counsel killing in several places. Perhaps the most clear passage is from Sura 2, The Cow:

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

There’s much debate about what even these comparatively simple lines mean, but I’d say they mean “Fight those who persecute, oppresses, or attack you, but follow the ‘rules of war’. Don’t start a fight in a Mosque, but if someone starts a fight with you there, kill them. Don’t kill or be hostile toward anyone who surrenders to you, and don’t bear a grudge afterwards.”

Other lines from the Quran require Muslims to honor ambassadors from other countries, and respect the laws of other countries when visiting them – though my unfamiliarity with it prevents me from quoting them without a long search.

One shouldn’t, I think, sugar-coat Muhammad’s message – it was, as best I can conclude, on of violent conquest and expulsion, seeking to make all of the Arabian peninsula a single state under religious rule, expelling all who refused to convert to that religion, and, if they refused to be expelled, killing them. Neither should one believe his message is one of genocide, or total world conquest.

Although I’m speculating in a complicated field in which my knowledge is poor, I believe the “bottom line” of the Quran prescribes ongoing peaceful relations between a powerful Muslim state and the rest of the world – but one of strict separation, in which Muslims and non-Muslims keep to their own countries, and have little communication or commerce. It’s of little surprise to me, then, that the collision of the beliefs engendered by the Quran and the modern idea of a world knit together by communication, trade, and international law, is causing conflicts and radical religious “fundamentalism”.

I believe modern, devout Muslims are faced with a terribly difficult problem in embracing both of these ideologies. The Quran was written by an intelligent man with a keen awareness of the political realities of 6-7th century Arabia. Political realities are very different now. To succeed, devout Muslims and their religious authorities must, IMHO, be open-minded and creative in their interpretation of the Quran – that is, be less concerned with what the Prophet did say, than what he would say, were he alive now.

[Qfwfq]

Well, I don't know about the Qur'an itself discriminating heavily against all other religions, the main antipathy is against Jews, but I do know that there is a strong de facto discrimination in current Saudi Arabia against all non-Muslims. The constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran states free choice of religion, article 23 says that: “the investigation of individuals’ beliefs is forbidden, and no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief.” and I know that the minorities there of Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians are not harassed, as long as they comply with the laws which are according to Islamic principles.

A controversial matter is the claim that the Qur'an considers previous scriptures to be corrupted by men pursuing their interests; there is plenty of room for interpretation here! Some possibly helpful links:

Responding to Muslims: Introduction
CHRISTIANS, VIRGIN MARY & JESUS IN THE QUR'AN
Noorullah Online » Does the Qur’an tell Muslims to follow the gospels?

[jungjedi]

check out the poetry of RUMI if your not familiar with Islam.its a great introduction
Spring Giddiness

Today, like every other day, we wake up empty
and frightened. Don't open the door to the study
and begin reading. Take down a musical instrument.
Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.



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The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you.
Don't go back to sleep.
You must ask for what you really want.
Don't go back to sleep.
People are going back and forth across the doorsill
where the two worlds touch.
The door is round and open.
Don't go back to sleep.



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I would love to kiss you.
The price of kissing is your life.
Now my loving is running toward my life shouting,
What a bargain, let's buy it.



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Daylight, full of small dancing particles
and the one great turning, our souls
are dancing with you, without feet, they dance.
Can you see them when I whisper in your ear?



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All day and night, music,
a quiet, bright
reedsong. If it
fades, we fade.

[orbsycli]

beautiful, thank you.