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View Poll Results: Have you read Stanley Milgram's Obedience to Authority?(multiple choice)
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Old 07-31-2007   #1 (permalink)
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Arrow Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

The title of this thread is the title of Stanley Milgram's seminal work which I have frequently referenced in other topics here. I have fished out a review of the book I wrote decades ago and I am in the process of typing it into a Wordpad file and for posting as a preface to this thread. I understand that there is a black market for this kind of material in institutions of higher learning, and I hesitated to publisize it for that very reason. Nonetheless, the topic is important in my view and so I'll append a curse of a week's itching to any and all who copy it & pass it off as their own. Behave!

Book Review

1. Citation
a. Obedience
b.Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View
c. Stanley Milgram
d. Harper & Row, Publishers Inc.
e. 1974
f. Preface: 3 pages
Acknowledgements: 2 pages
Main Body of Text: 189 pages
Appendices: 13 pages
Notes: 7 pages
References: 6 pages
Index: 6 pages

2. Statment of Author's Qualifications for Writing on the Subject
Mr. Milgram received his B.A. in political science from Queens University of the City University of New York in 1954. He changed his major to social psychology for his graduate work because he felt that sociological questions concerning behavior could be answerer scientifically. His dissertation, "Conformity in Norway and France", earned him his doctorate from Harvard in 1960. Mr. Milgram served as assistant professor of psychology at Yale University from 1960-1963, where he conducted the experiments detailed in this book. He has researched and written about crowd behavior, the effects of TV violence on viewers, conformity, and the experience of urban life.

3. Statement of Author's Intended Purpose or Objectives.
The author designed a set of experiments that would lead him to a better understanding of peoples' obedience to authority in the absence of compulsion, that is,the threat of force or punishment. His intention was to determine through experiment, how far a person will go in hurting another person when directed to do so by a perceived authoreity figure.

4. Summary
The book outlines the results of eighteen different experiments, all variations of a basic setup as follows. Subjects were recruited on the pretense of participating in a scientific study dealing with the correlation between punishment and learning. Through a rigged drawing, the subjects were designated the teacher and seated before an elaborate panel of switches, lights, and meters. They were instructed by an experimenter (the recognized authority figure), to read a series of word pairs to the learner and then to test the learner's memory of the pairs. When an incorrect answer was given, the teacher was to administer shocks of increasing voltage, beginning at 15 volts and rising to 450 volts in 15 volt increments. Several aspects to the experiments should be noted: 1) Al participants were part of the research team except for the subject designated the teacher. 2) The voltage labels on the switches were augmented by word labels identifying the level of shock, .e.g 'Moderate Shock', 'Extreme Shock', 'Danger: Severe Shock'. 3) Other than an initial 45 volt shock administered to the teacher to strengthen their belief in the authenticity of the generator, no shocks were actually given.

The results of the experiments were not at all what Mr. Milgram had anticipated - he described them as "both surprising and dismaying"- nor did they conform to the expectations of surveys of several groups who predicted that no one would obey the experimenter. Several adjustments had to be made in the experiment to offset the unexpected results. Virtually all subjects continued to administer the highest shock level in the initial experiment, so that in all subsequent experiments a tape recording was played that corresponded to the various voltages. The tape consisted of verbal responses attributed to the learner and ranging from a small grunt to agonized screams.

Various aspects of the experiment were modified, such as the gender of the subject, proximity of the victim (learner), change in personnel, proximity and number of authority figures, and influennce of peers on the subject, in order to get a better understanding of the factors responsible for the subjects obedience to authority.

Mr. Milgram's analysis of the results suggest that several factors are of prime importance in explaining the behavior of the subjects: 1) Inborn structures reflecting hierarchical levels found throughout Nature, establish the potential for obedience. 2) Social influences like family, institutional systems of authority, and the internalization of social norms establish in people the concept of who represents an authority figure and what the appropriate responses are when confronted by such a figure. In short, despite severe distress exhibited by subjects because of their personal moral beliefs, the deeply ingrained ideas of who reperesents authority and how they should be reacted to were powerful enough to override most urges to disobey.

5. Statement of the Objectives that the Author Achieved
The author successfully demonstrated how far people will go in hurting someone when directed to do so by a perceived authority figure. The relatively large number of variations of the experiment helped to clarify just what conditions carried the most influence for affecting peoples obedience to authority.

Fini


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semantics is not always just pedantic quibbling. ~ douglas r. hofstadter

Last edited by Turtle; 07-31-2007 at 04:06 PM..
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Old 07-31-2007   #2 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

OK. From here on out it's all open to discussion. In typing the review in and rereading it I give myself a C for the writing. Enough passive structures in there to choke an equine. What's an editor to do

I see I left quite a few pertinent details out, but I did not recall Milgram's comments on the role of brain structure. Tan mieux because that is one avenue I tend to stroll down. Another way I have in mind to expand on Milgram's study is to expand the library of 'authority figures' to include other authoritive symbology such as books, age, ideals, morals, dress,... subtle signs of all ilk & manner such as get us to obey.

Discuss,


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Old 07-31-2007   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

In a distinct, but related, experiment we learned that we adapt to the roles we are given to play.

Distributed responsibility is a bad thing - but how would we live without it.

Anytime you get more than a dozen or so people together they will form a hierarchy. (This doesn't necessarily mean that there's an alpha dog, etc...) Everyone figures out what "role" they need to play and then plays it to the best of their abilities. We are social critters, and we like being parts of society. The nail that sticks out gets hammered, so we try not to.

I don't think this is a priori a bad thing. I'm not sure how you could have a functioning society WITHOUT this kind of behavior - but it has I think, an unfortunate side effect - which is obedience to the leader. Some people, unintentionally or not, "grab hold" of this group dynamic and then can get the group to do - basically whatever they want. If the group is already established - so much the better.

That's how things like the Nazi party happen. No body is really responsible. No body wants to be the one who says "enough." And nobody but a few people are really 'true believers.'

If you want to be more inflammatory, that's how things like Christianity happen. Nobody want to go - "Umm... But I kinda enjoy doin' it." Nobody really buys it all. There are only a few true blue believers, but the group dynamic is such that everyone is convinced that everybody BUT themselves is just such a true believer, and that their doubts make them a standout and not a member of the majority.

For a demonstration of this principle in action, witness the Iraq vote four years ago, where everybody was afraid of being seen as "soft on terrorism" and witness the debate now where everybody is afraid of being seen as "soft on Bush."

There is no idea so bad you can't convince at least one other person that it's a good idea. With each person that you convince, you have to convince the next person less completely, until eventually, you have an army of people who don't really agree with you, but will fight to the death for whatever stupid cause you think they should.

How do you think the Army works?

TFS


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Old 07-31-2007   #4 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFaithfulStone View Post
Reading that link I see the primary investigator was a high-school friend of Milgram's. I mentioned leaving out details and one is that Milgram's study was carried out in 1961 but he didn't publish it untill 1974. He was in part looking for answers to the Nazi's success in getting so many to obey when he designed the experiment, and then in 1968 the My Lai masacre happened in Vietnam. As I understand it, Milgram needed coaxing to publish the experiment at all, so disturbing did he find the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
If you want to be more inflammatory, that's how things like Christianity happen. Nobody want to go - "Umm... But I kinda enjoy doin' it." Nobody really buys it all. There are only a few true blue believers, but the group dynamic is such that everyone is convinced that everybody BUT themselves is just such a true believer, and that their doubts make them a standout and not a member of the majority. ... TFS
I think perceptions of authority is how things like religion perpetuate & we are going there too. A spade is a spade and we will dig in every corner. I think the group dynamic as you describe it is not in line with Milgram's results however, i.e. the subjects in the experiment never met or participated with other subjects as a group.

Many of the subjects who proclaimed high moral beliefs in pre-experiment interviews and later went right ahead shocking all the way up to 450 volts, required debriefing and ongoing therapy after the fact. The validity of the experimenter's authority was conveyed by a lab setting, wearing white lab coats, and carrying clip boards. That's all it took. So again I want to emphasize my idea that it is as much the objects and their connotations as it is the people.

This article is worth reposting as it pertains to the hardwiring aspect I plan to further explore. >> The Subconcious Brain - Who's Minding the Mind? - New York Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYTimes
...New studies have found that people tidy up more thoroughly when there’s a faint tang of cleaning liquid in the air; they become more competitive if there’s a briefcase in sight, or more cooperative if they glimpse words like “dependable” and “support” — all without being aware of the change, or what prompted it.

Psychologists say that “priming” people in this way is not some form of hypnotism, or even subliminal seduction; rather, it’s a demonstration of how everyday sights, smells and sounds can selectively activate goals or motives that people already have. ...
Good stuff Maynard.


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Last edited by Turtle; 07-31-2007 at 09:03 PM..
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Old 07-31-2007   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

I think its worth mentioning that (according to David Meyer's intro psych book) the group of people in Milgram's experiment who consistently refused to deliver the high voltage shocks were electrical engineers/electrical workers. I think this demonstrates that part of the reason the experiment works is that subjects manage to convince themselves they aren't "really" hurting the other person.

Perhaps this demonstrates how blind obedience to authority can be especially dangerous when mixed with scientific ignorance (not understanding voltages).
-Will
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Old 07-31-2007   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

Yes, most of the participants in the study indicated that they did not believe they were truly hurting others.
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Old 07-31-2007   #7 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

The last post is factually mistaken and lacking support or reference.


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Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle View Post
The last post is factually mistaken and lacking support or reference.
Lol... Any college level Psych 101 student knows that when they go into an experiment that there are controls in place, and any interpreter of the study data recognizes the same.

Using confederates in a study setup is invariably a way to introduce uncontrollable factors, and my proposition is that the participants of the study (aka subjects) knew on an inherent level that what they were doing had no impact. Their phsyiological symptoms were a result of their inborn and educated tendencies that, despite the limited reality of the situation, what they were doing was wrong.

I don't negate the importance of Milgram's work, but it's important to view it in proper context. Why did these folks do it anyway? That's the question. The study makes many important points about tendencies toward following blindly, and also raises questions about society at large.

However, most studied individuals on the topic acknowledge that these actions were engaged in by participants out of a sense of obligation, not any particularly aggressive tendecies.

See "Stanley Milgram: The Perils of Obedience."
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Old 07-31-2007   #9 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perils of Obedience
...The condition of the experiment undermines another commonly offered explanation of the subjects' behavior -- that those who shocked the victim at the most severe levels came only from the sadistic fringe of society. If one considers that almost two-thirds of the participants fall into the category of "obedient" subjects, and that they represented ordinary people drawn from working, managerial, and professional classes, the argument becomes very shaky. ...
The Perils of Obedience - Stanley Milgram


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Old 08-01-2007   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View

Well, the group dynamic I was talking about is the one where the "doctor" has the role of authority, and the "not-doctor" has the role of doing what you're told.

That is, there is a group dynamic going on there - which is "You do what experts tell you to do, because you don't want to be the guy who goes against expert advice."

Good point about people being 'primed' to obey them though by the accouterments of authority - the lab coat, the setting etc. I imagine if you conducted this same experiment and the people DIDN'T have lab coats, etc, it wouldn't work nearly as well.

TFS


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