Shutting down a democracy

[orbsycli]

So you don't think the American Government is repeating history with their lust for control? It appears evident to me . . just look around.
I can see how the USA seems peachy to a guy like you. To each his own, eh?
I see a monster.

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

So you don't think the American Government is repeating history with their lust for control? It appears evident to me . . just look around.
I can see how the USA seems peachy to a guy like you. To each his own, eh?
I see a monster.

We could lay on a hill looking at the clouds and see all sorts of wonderful and amazing things, or we could just see clouds. One of us is seeing pictures in the clouds, and the other is just seeing clouds. The disagreement is which one of us is seeing which? There is a great deal said in your couple of sentences, my question is around how you arrived at your conclusions. I do not agree with the conclusions drawn by Ms. Wolf. I do draw my own conclusions, and there are plenty of things we need to be working on; peachy is a matter of perspective.

Bill

[orbsycli]

She laid out a blueprint that has been used in the past.
It's a relative algorithm on how to possibly gain control of a massive population.
Why are they doing these things?
I have no idea.
She uses the term echo, I like that.
I see/hear the echoes of a fascist future everywhere.
Especially in the south, and up in NYC.
Will the USA fall into all of those catagories?
It's already filling some.
I have no idea what's going to happen, but I see what direction it could easily go into and looks like it is....
What good are they doing?
Lying their asses off to all the sad monkeys who believe them.
Yuck.

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

She laid out a blueprint that has been used in the past.
It's a relative algorithm on how to gain control.
Why are they doing these things?
I have no idea.
She uses the term echo, I like that.
I see/hear the echoes of a fascist future everywhere.
Especially in the south, and up in NYC.
Will the USA fall into all of those catagories?
It's already filling some.
I have no idea what's going to happen, but I see what direction it could easily go into and looks like it is....
What good are they doing?
Lying their asses off to all the sad monkeys who believe them.
Yuck.

I only ask one thing, Orb. Apply her blueprint to any country in the world and see what you find. Apply it to any country at any time in history and see what you find. The point is that you will find what you are looking for in every country and at all times in history.

Bill

[REASON]

Bill,

Wow! I gotta admit that I didn't expect that type of defensive reply to my questions. You make some valid points, but it appears that your position is one of "kill the messenger." Naomi Wolf doesn't have the power that you credit her with. She is someone who has found a pattern of behavior with previous regimes, and then found a correlation with the behavior and policies of our current administration.

She is one of countless journalists, political experts, law professors, constitutional scholars, ex-CIA officials, and retired military brass that are drawing similar conclusions and writing books. I'm sure they're all a bunch of vengeful fools without an iota of proof. If she is wrong as you say, she and her work will wither into the void of conspiricy nuthood. But if she is right, she will either be highly regarded for her prescience, or may find herself one day extraordinarily rendered.

You are correct on one thing for sure. Based on your post, it would be pointless for us to continue debating the subject. To each his own. Our beliefs are likely products of the breadth of infomation we have consumed. Based on the posts of yours that I have read, I believe you are a very wise man. I only hope that at the critical moment, should it ever arise (assuming it isn't already here), your objectivity will overcome any sense of party loyalty you may possess.

And please keep something in mind - In a democracy, nationalism and patriotism are not reserved for those who choose to play follow the leader.

[orbsycli]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

I only ask one thing, Orb. Apply her blueprint to any country in the world and see what you find. Apply it to any country at any time in history and see what you find. The point is that you will find what you are looking for in every country and at all times in history.

Bill

It is disturbing that you can find these characteristics "in every country and at all times in history"

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

It is disturbing that you can find these characteristics "in every country and at all times in history"

Yet, somehow it is reassuring that we, in this time & place, have near unprecedented freedom to not only point out these characteristics, but who embodies them, make it public, and take legal & political action to stop/correct the trangression(s).

Keep in mind that on the above testimony, the founding fathers established our nation under the same duress and prevailed. "The price of Freedom is constant vigilance," I believe is what Tom said. Ain't it the truth...still.

[KickAssClown]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

HERE IS A POTENTIALLY CONSTRUCTIVE COURSE OF ACTION:

What if we ALL demanded that WE be put on the "list" of dissidents.

What if HALF or even a THIRD of all American adults demanded to be put on that list?:
"We are terrorists and we pose a potential threat to this administration!"

Then start making up "flag burning" kits: one American flag and a small lighter.

Organize "The March of a Million Dissidents" in Washington DC.

Bring your flag kits and force the gestapo to arrest US ALL!

Bring the system to its knees.

I like the concept, but I have difficulty seeing how to play it out; also, I personally would wave a flag rather than burn it. The flag is, to me, a symbol of the ideals on which this country was founded and the ideal which, I believe, we ought to consider in our pursuit of improvement for all the people of this nation.

Dissidence is necessary to the healthy functioning of a democratic nation; thus, dissidence is patriotism in my eyes*. The pilots in the commerical airlines fly by twos for a good reason. one flys the plane and the other questions the decisions of the pilot; thus the dissident pilot serves to keep the other aware, actively engaged and critical of his own decisions making process. Apparently, it saves lives.

*Leap of logic, I know but the whole argument is an essay I wrote recently and better served as it's own topic.

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

It is disturbing that you can find these characteristics "in every country and at all times in history"

That is why it is disturbing that so much meaning is read into it.

[orbsycli]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

That is why it is disturbing that so much meaning is read into it.

I disagree.
Our country is just now realizing it has been lied to for years by the people that RUN it!
What has happened everywhere else all over world, I can not say.
I can only say what I've seen here in America the short time I've lived here.