Conservative intuition: ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity

[Essay]

Originally Posted by Galapagos

Jonathan Haidt published a new article, "What Makes People Vote Republican" on edge.org recently.

Edge: WHAT MAKES PEOPLE VOTE REPUBLICAN? By Jonathan Haidt

I've only read the above part (and through the thread), but not the links to Haidt yet.

Here's part of what I recently wrote in a personal letter:

Watching CSPAN (esp. BookTV on weekends; see also on computer) has enabled me to understand both the conservative and liberal perspectives much better.

For so long the conservative views and ideas made as much sense as the liberal philosophies, and I coulnd't understand how two competing philosophies could both seem so valid.
Finally I found a unifying principle to help explain the logic of the two sides. All their decisions, programs, and ideas make sense if seen from the proper perspective.

Conservatives act from fear and assume unlimited time and resources are available to sort things out and establish global security.
[unlimited time... for things to "trickle down," ...for the free market to work things out, ...etc.]
Liberals act from hope and assume very limited time and resources are available to sort things out and establish global equity.
[limited time... to help large groups at once, ...save resources, ...etc.]

The whole free-market vs. regulated, incentivized economies thing makes sense when respectively employing these two perspectives.

Even going back to the founding of this country, one can see these two opposing philosophies; that of individuality and freedom, versus that of equality and justice. ...Not always compatible.

Does this sound like a sentiment similar to Haidt?
Any other thoughts, critiques, objections, caveats, etc. welcome.

[questor]

Hydrogen bond, your post made a lot of sense.
Modest, your poll shows that around a third of Dems and Repubs believe that man evolved God guided. I assume you think these are the most stupid of all.
I also deduce that you think the 55% atheist Dems are the most intelligent.
I do not know how or what actual questions were posed for this poll, so I can't really comment on it. What I can comment on is the fact that most of the business owners I know are Republicans and most interest groups I know of are Democrats. I would rather be a member of a group which believes in private enterprise, capitalism, self reliance and self responsibility than one who believes government is the solution to all societal problems. If the country was actually divided into two parts, one liberal and one conservative, which part would you think would the most stable and prosperous?

[Essay]

Originally Posted by questor

If the country was actually divided into two parts, one liberal and one conservative, which part would you think would the most stable and prosperous?

Literally? Well, then quite quickly the prosperous side would take over the other side.

But in general....

Stability may be in the eyes of the beholder.

Enforced stability can come from prosperity.
Equitable prosperity can allow all to become more safe.

Weren't most areas of the world stable pastoral communities, until prosperity "came" to them?
Isn't it the wide disparity in "prosperity" that creates so much inequity and injustice (instability) in the world?
....Especially when that disparity develops rapidly....



p.s.

Sorry, I didn't really answer your question:

The conservative side would be the most properous, but I don't think the stability would be sustainable over generations. The liberal side could achieve a sustainable stability, but would not be the most prosperous (probably at best, only 80% as prosperous).

...what a bunch of losers; only 80%....

[modest]

Originally Posted by questor

Modest, your poll shows that around a third of Dems and Repubs believe that man evolved God guided. I assume you think these are the most stupid of all.

It's not "my" poll, and your assumption is in direct opposition to something I told you directly just a couple posts ago. You're the only person here that's calling people stupid. As you may recall, I told you that trying to associate these beliefs with intelligence is not proper. In fact, I told you it does a disservice to the problem in general. No. I don't think "they" are stupid.

Originally Posted by questor

I also deduce that you think the 55% atheist Dems are the most intelligent.

The number 55 appears nowhere on the two graphs I posted. You're obviously misreading something and I can't figure out how. 17% of self-proclaimed democrats responded that they believe god had no part in evolution. 4% of republicans responded the same. I do not equate these results with intelligence.

Originally Posted by questor

I do not know how or what actual questions were posed for this poll,

Then follow the links that I gave...

Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design
Republicans, Democrats Differ on Creationism

I posted the pertinent question word for word in the post, the others can be found on Gallup's site that I sourced. These polls are in direct opposition to your position that creationism placed less than 10,000 years ago is an uncommon belief. I'm not going to spoon feed you the poll - It opposes directly what you said.

Originally Posted by questor

so I can't really comment on it.

and I didn't expect you to. It is simply beyond your reproach. I expected you to throw some ad hominems my way for posting it - which you did.

Originally Posted by questor

I would rather be a member of a group which believes in private enterprise, capitalism, self reliance and self responsibility than one who believes government is the solution to all societal problems.

Well, that seems relevant.

Originally Posted by questor

If the country was actually divided into two parts, one liberal and one conservative, which part would you think would the most stable and prosperous?

Well, clearly, the liberal half would have rainbows of bubblegum happiness and jellybean raindrops of joy. All would frolic in everlasting delight. The conservative half would probably resemble something like Goodbye Blue Sky from a Pink Floyd video.

In all seriousness, your question is exactly the attitude the democratic party is currently trying to put behind us.

Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.

Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America; there's the United States of America.

There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America.

The pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue States: red states for Republicans, blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states. We coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.

I'll let you figure out who said that at your leisure.

~modest

[questor]

I don't know who said this, but he couldn't be more wrong:
''The pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue States: red states for Republicans, blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states. We coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.


''We worship an awesome God in the blue states,''
Is it not true that the liberal ACLU wants to remove all mention of God in textbooks, public memorials, the Pledge of Allegiance, eliminate prayer in public school and the Motto on our currency? Is it not true there is an atheist club on this site? What % liberals do you think really believe in God, and if they do, why haven't they resisted the ACLU's machinations?

''We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.''
This statement is so patently ridiculous in todays world, it warrants no discussion.

[Moontanman]

I smell something, yes I am sure, something distinctive yet rancid. Something old and stale like the under side of a very old bridge

[Galapagos]

Originally Posted by questor

What % liberals do you think really believe in God

Too many!

Originally Posted by Gallup

It is well-known that Republicans are more religious than are Democrats (or independents). These data confirm that finding. Eighty-nine percent of Republicans believe in God, compared to 77% of Democrats and an even lower 70% of independents.

GALLUP-Belief in God Far Lower in Western U.S.

Also interesting is the ever-present negative correlation between education and belief!

Originally Posted by questor

, and if they do, why haven't they resisted the ACLU's machinations?

Because they also believe in/respect a separation of church and state. In a global community, and immigrant nation like our own, secularism and tolerance stabilize society.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

I smell something, yes I am sure, something distinctive yet rancid. Something old and stale like the under side of a very old bridge

Its about time someone said that Questor you have shown you're self to be a raving idiot with absolutely zero regard for simple logic or any ability to debate within a framework of historical references and facts . Ether engage your brain or crawl back under you’re bridge.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by questor

''We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.''
This statement is so patently ridiculous in todays world, it warrants no discussion.

My goodness, I don't usually find myself shaking with indignation after reading many posts.
...but let me tell you....
My grandpa, an immigrant from Europe, eventually was a state Sec. of State; my dad gave most of his sight and hearing for this country's wars as a pilot, and contributed to the skunk-works programs; and I can't tell you where my sister worked, but her husband gave his life overseas for this country also.
My family chose to educate me beyond all reason, but don't tell me that I don't always have to hold back tears when I think of our flag.

I'm educated and experienced enough to know that conservatives only have the best of intentions for the future of our country also.

Just because we disagree on tactics doesn't make either of us evil or unpatriotic.
The fact that you choose to write here at all indicates that you care; I hope you'll realize that the same holds true for others.

Thanks,
~SA

[modest]

Originally Posted by questor

This statement is so patently ridiculous in todays world, it warrants no discussion.

I think this sums up our differences very well. Despite my political differences with you, questor, we are both Americans. I'm quite sure we both love our country deeply. Though our methods are slightly different, our goals are the same. We want a strong country, a safe country - with opportunity for our children and grandchildren. Small differences in economic policy and social ideology can't touch that. We have too much in common to be split by these liberal and conservative labels that in reality represent very little.

I might have a slightly different interpretation of freedom of speech than you do, but this doesn't make either of us unpatriotic. We can come together and set a common course for our country and be better of for it. I believe this, and you could believe it to. It wouldn't mean you have to share my beliefs on right to life or my views on God. It's just a common respect. We are both Americans and we both want what's best for our country. Can you not recognize this?

~modest