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Old 09-18-2008   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

To me they are barbaric. Their major export is opium and derivatives. A great number of the population are Taliban sympathisers. We are in a no-win situation there for a non-strategic country. They will bleed us just like they bled Russia. Our country is teetering on financial chaos, what is our gain to stay there?
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Old 09-18-2008   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

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We are in a no-win situation there for a non-strategic country.
You display no knowledge of the situation. Central Asia is arguably the area of greatest political interest between Russia, China and the US. Russia and China are playing a high level chess game for control in the region. The geopolitics of oil and gas near the Caspian sea alone...

"non-strategic country"

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Old 09-18-2008   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

So, we are not spending enough men, materiel, and money. Now you want to interject us in a situation that does not directly endanger us at this time. I guess you also want to put the missle defense system in Poland, we'll get Russia REALLY pissed off. Have you noticed we have a shortage of troops? Have you also noticed we are teetering on the edge of financial chaos?
Do you not think some other countries should step up to the plate? This country is ready to riot about the current war.
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Old 09-18-2008   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

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Now you want to interject us in a situation that does not directly endanger us at this time.
What situation?

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Old 09-18-2008   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

In 1998 or 1999, the Clinton Admin made several formal requests for the taliban to hand over Bin Laden to face charges as the mastermind behind the African embassy bombings.

After 9-11, Bush put it to the taliban to hand over bin laden or we would come after him.

We will never know if war would have occurred if the Taliban had turned him over, but it is likely it would have delayed the actions of the US military at least.

The military presence in Afghanistan is a direct result of Taliban policy.
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Old 09-18-2008   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

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I merely spoke to the reason we WENT to war. I am for leaving these barbarians to work out their own problems. By the way, I am unaware we went in for oil. How did we do? Where is all the money we made? They have a lot of oil, so I'm happy they are giving it to us.
As I understand it, it is not for their oil, per se, but rather for the potential to run a pipeline through afghanistan. However, I haven't looked into it in a long time, and I can't say that I'm very familiar with the region. I do know that, from what I've heard, Afghanistan would be a good candidate, like Iran, to have a secular democracy. While their governments have been very controlled by religious politics, the people themselves tend to be considered pragmatic and not often extremist. (Obviously, both countries have extremists, just like we have Fred Phelps. Just because they are the loudest voices doesn't mean they're the most common).


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Old 09-18-2008   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

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As I understand it, it is not for their oil, per se, but rather for the potential to run a pipeline through afghanistan. However, I haven't looked into it in a long time, and I can't say that I'm very familiar with the region.
The war for pipeline thing is untrue. It's a conspiracy theory. The pipeline would more-likely have been built without the war than with it. The Taliban had already agreed to its construction. Also, it wouldn't be an oil pipeline as Turkmenistan has little oil, but is the 4th largest holder of natural gas in the world.

It would be beneficial for America if this pipeline were built, but it would be more beneficial for the region. Turkmenistan would benefit most along with Afghanistan which would gain significant income from transport fees. Pakistan and India would be the largest recipients of the pipeline's product which is an eager prospect for both countries.

Turkmenistan has vast riches just like Kazakhstan to the north. Unfortunately, they do not share a border with Russia like Kazakhstan does limiting Russia's ability to control Turkmenistan's distribution. Russia wants to control any pipeline that's built in order to control the oil/gas market of eastern (and soon western) Europe. This gives Russia political power which they are not afraid to use.

They wield this power by raising oil rates to ridiculous levels unless countries comply with their political demands. They will even withhold oil completely if their demands aren't met. In 2004 the Ukraine was accompanying itself diplomatically with the EU to which Russia responded by upping prices. Ukraine resisted further in 2005 and Russia shut off the pipeline completely (in the middle of winter).

So, Russia doesn't want to loose this power. A gas pipeline was recently completed running from Azerbaijan (west side of the Caspian sea) to open ocean in Turkey (South Caucasus Pipeline). This was a good development for Turkmenistan which would be able to run a pipeline across the bottom the Caspian and on to open markets. However, this prospect would not benefit Russia either monetarily or politically so they did everything possible to stop the project which it looks like the succeeded in. The proposed underwater pipeline was: Trans-Caspian Gas Pipeline

RIA Novosti - Opinion & analysis - Energy nexus: Russia and Central Asia
JTW News - End of Russian Monopoly in Energy?!
EurasiaNet Business & Economics - Russia Celebrates its Central Asian Energy Coup

It is notable that China, like the US, is worried about being so totally dependent on Middle Eastern oil. As wikipedia says on their ‘Strait of Malacca’ page:
Quote:
About a quarter of all oil carried by sea passes through the strait, mainly from Persian Gulf suppliers to Asian markets such as China, Japan, and South Korea.
A Naval conflict could seriously hinder China’s ability to sustain itself if shipping lanes were unsafe for oil freighters. It is, therefore, a strategy of China to import oil by other (more direct) routes that will be less vulnerable to possible future aggressors. They are finishing up the Kazakhstan-China oil pipeline which is currently operating as China’s first direct import pipeline.

Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan are therefore both doing quite well at distributing their natural resources (as is, of course, Russia). The only country really lagging in their ability to get the Caspian Sea's oil and gas out of the landlocked region is Turkmenistan. Unfortunately, instability in Afghanistan has put plans for a trans-Afghanistan pipeline on hold and, Russia put the trans-Caspian plans on hold. It would be nice to get that gas out to the world, and it's really sad that if they are ever able to do so via Afghanistan there will be people who jump on that fact saying "See - that's why America went to war". Really sad.

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Last edited by modest; 09-18-2008 at 09:35 PM..
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Old 09-19-2008   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

Very interesting Modest
Thanks for the info
Are you sure about the pipeline? I think I posted a link about it earlier in this thread
What about the recent USA geographical survey of Afganistan? No conspiracy theory here?

The CIA had plenty of opportunities to get Bin Laden and they blew them because of
1. Incompetence
2. Lack of direction/decisiveness from the very top
3. Trusting the Pakistani Secret Service-who screwed them.
4. Dithering about getting military aid to strong Afghan war lords like Massued (sp?) ( partly the fault of the Pakkis again)


Someone has been invading Afghanistan for the last 200+ years. No one has ever "won"
Australia has lost more troops there than in Iraq and we are not even a member of NATO (If you look we are just above Antarctica; about as far away from Afghanistan as possible.)
Our new PM has called on NATO troops to step up to the plate and also take on some of the more risky patrols instead of playing cards in the fortified barracks.

I don't think you can blame the Afghani people for growing opium
They have to eat
The USA deforested most of Viet-Nam in the sixties with weedicide. How come the reluctance to do the same to poppy fields in Afghanistan?
No conspiracy theory here either?

Quite a few Afghani people helped develop out-back Australia in the early days and many Australians have fond memories of them.
They brought their camels with them. Many of whom are now feral. They are now such a pure, hardy blood line we are exporting them back to the Middle East!


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Last edited by Michaelangelica; 09-20-2008 at 02:36 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 09-20-2008   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

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Originally Posted by questor View Post
So, we are not spending enough men, materiel, and money. Now you want to interject us in a situation that does not directly endanger us at this time. I guess you also want to put the missle defense system in Poland, we'll get Russia REALLY pissed off. Have you noticed we have a shortage of troops? Have you also noticed we are teetering on the edge of financial chaos?
Do you not think some other countries should step up to the plate? This country is ready to riot about the current war.
We are teetering on the brink at least partially due to a BS war we should never have started. Yes we have a shortage of troops, because of a BS war in Iraq. It's flat out amazing how your tunnel vision works. We have reason to want to pacify Afghanistan, they attacked us, we should have put the effort we put into Iraq into Afghanistan, if we don't it will indeed grind us down.


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Old 09-20-2008   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Justification for war in Afghanistan

How many years, how many soldiers, how many dollars are we supposed to spend in Afghanistan, when the Taliban has a strong parallel government and is strengthening its grip on the countryside? What will be our reward and when? Karzai will probably not live another year.
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