The US Pledge of Allegiance

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by KickAssClown

Here in Chico out of the approximately hundred or so times that I was suspended from school, choosing to refuse to salute and pledge was one of the major contributors.

For those of you who are not familiar with California, its a really big place, and Chico--about 90 miles/140 km north of Sacramento in the central valley--is known for being one of the most conservative places in the state both politically and religiously: probably the majority of the population there thinks that the US is a "Christian Nation" and those who disagree are either Commies or Democrats.

Its also got a state university that is perennially a contender for top party school in the state along with San Diego State.

Of course while Larry Craig's politics would be popular there, he wouldn't last 2 minutes in the men's lavatory.

Immoral family values,
Buffy

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Where do you live? I have a student handbook for an Elementry School in Bradenton, Florida that informs all parents that children who do not wish to participate in the Pledge, are not required to do so. From my own memory in grade school, there were children of various religious backgrounds who did not pledge, and they were never punished for it.
I teach preschool children, and we do say The Pledge every morning to the flag out of grattitude for the good in our country. If one of my children did not wish to paritcipate they would never be forced. This could be a problem in only some schools in America, and should be corrected.

Here in Pa. I served many an I.S.S. or detention EVERY time I refused to say the pledge...then promptly got my butt whupped when I got home....in K-3rd grade I got detention AND a whupping IN school and then when I got home...of course kids don't get their butts whupped by teachers in school anymore...even in 93 when I graduated I.S.S. and detentions were still administered to those who refused to say the pledge. For those unfamilliar with I.S.S. or "In School Suspension" Basically you spend the day in a cubicle segregated from the rest of the students for the duration of your sentence.

[CraigD]

Having attended medium size (100-300/grade) public school in southern West Virginia (Bluefield) from 1966 to 1975, my own experiences with the Pledge are dated, but coincide more with the SCOTUS’s 1943 West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette decision than KAC and DD’s experiences. In 1968, as I became more politically aware, I stopped rising and reciting the Pledge in the classroom, and was not spoken to publicly or privately by teacher or school official about doing so. My classmates though this was pretty cool behavior, though I wasn’t only one of the first few, not the first, to do it. By the end of the third grade, by my imprecise recollection, about half of the class continued to recite the Pledge. In the fourth grade, the school began “tracked” dividing of classes according to standardized test scores (the “West Virginia Basic” test, which to the best I’ve been able to determine from conversations with educators, was discontinued around 1980). I was placed in the “A track” class, where the Pledge was not included in the class routine, eliminating our choice to stand and recite, or not.

Perhaps the 1960s and 70s US was more culturally liberal than the US of twenty years later. Regionally, I’d describe southern WV as having mixed political and ethical ideologies – while, there was general sympathy for “leftist” causes such the UMWA vs. mine owners and corporations, there was a long tradition of evangelical Christian fundamentalism. This pervasive religiosity posed more difficulty for me than compulsory patriotism - while I was never punished nor even criticized for rejecting the Pledge, the same was not true for refusing to participate in “voluntary” pubic school Bible classes. Although not formally disciplined, those who elected the alternative to these classes were required to spend the class time cleaning the school bathrooms, an odious enough duty that nearly all of us eventually acquiesced to attending Bible class. I still rather pity my poor Bible teacher.

Another possibility explanation for the difference between my experience and that of others is related to socioeconomic class. My father was a physician, and many of my fellow students had similarly high-status parents. I believe this caused school administrators to be careful to avoid any actionable infringements on our civil rights.

[KickAssClown]

Originally Posted by Buffy

For those of you who are not familiar with California, its a really big place, and Chico--about 90 miles/140 km north of Sacramento in the central valley--is known for being one of the most conservative places in the state both politically and religiously: probably the majority of the population there thinks that the US is a "Christian Nation" and those who disagree are either Commies or Democrats.

...

Immoral family values,
Buffy

Just to be clear, that sounds more like the outlying areas around Chico as well as notable pockets within. Chico is a college town seated squarely in the middle of several farming and retirement communities. Paradise, Gridley, Orland, and Oroville, as I understand it, are more like the description given by Buffy. Chico as far as our neighbors go, is rather liberal/independent or at least it has been; although, I have noted a slide towards the more conservative end of things since we've had a sizable influx of retiring individuals from the larger cities (like Sacromento, San Francisco and Los Angeles) to our south.

Durham, a small community to our south in between Oroville and Chico, was a commune in the late 60's, I do believe.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by KickAssClown

Just to be clear, that sounds more like the outlying areas around Chico as well as notable pockets within. Chico is a college town seated squarely in the middle of several farming and retirement communities. ... Chico as far as our neighbors go, is rather liberal/independent or at least it has been; although, I have noted a slide towards the more conservative end of things since we've had a sizable influx of retiring individuals from the larger cities (like Sacromento, San Francisco and Los Angeles) to our south.

I admit to a bit of overstatement!

A friend of mine who lives in San Luis Obispo (not exactly a liberal mecca!) spent several months there this summer, and I got an earful about it. Her ex is from Oroville, and exactly corresponds to the redneck-all-non-Christians-are-going-to-hell-and-support-terrorism stereotype though.

And as I said, Chico State is a first rate party school, although I've never been to a party there (and am a bit old for that these days!), and I had friends who went there *specifically* because of the rep. It being a California State University though, its still got quite a bit of academic heft, so I wouldn't diss it completely either!

There's much in this dichotomy to explain the experience of being persecuted as you describe KAC: compared to the Coastal Liberal Havens of California, its a pretty conservative place, but being a college town probably saves it!

Quite an enigma, Chico...

I envy the fact that you're closer to the Olive Pit than I am...

Vodka Martini's with Hot Shots,
Buffy

[DougF]

DFINITLYDISTRUBD
For 30 years every person of authority has fed me (and you) the same old lies. They proudly proclaim (with their fingers crossed no less ) that as an American I'm lucky. I live in the land of milk and honey. No other nation in the world is as free or well off as the good ol U.S.A.
I say not true. Why?:

OK let me start out by saying, in the begging all immigrants were welcome to the US of A they had to learn to answer all of the immigration questions in English, say the Pledge of Allegiance and swear allegiance to the United States of America, now this dose not say that they have to change and become a Baptist, all this says is that now you do not support *Iran* any more and your loyalties are with the USA.
that is said is you will now

OK now that I'm talking about the Pledge, (hold on here I go again)
I think *GOD* had a big hand I making this country And I think he should stay in the Pledge and on the Dollar (all monies) this doses not mean you have to stop and pray three times a day to money or any thing like that,
this is a free country you can call me an a** h**e if you want to you can have a rebel flag in your back window (it's not hate it's heritage) if you want to leave ____ countray and live in the land of milk and honey then Pledging your Allegiance to The United States Of America should be a problem, this does not force you to pray to any religion or God, this just says if your going to live here and work here your Allegiance should be here too.

[KickAssClown]

I would just like to point out that the portion "under god" was added in 1951 by the Knights of Columbus. The phrase "In God we trust." on the dollar comes from an act of congress in 1954.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by KickAssClown

I would just like to point out that the portion "under god" was added in 1951 by the Knights of Columbus. The phrase "In God we trust." on the dollar comes from an act of congress in 1954.

Actually what the KoC began the Congress enacted into law. From Wikipedia:
"On February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. On Lincoln’s birthday, four days later, Oakman made the following speech on the floor of the House:"
"...Eisenhower opted to sign the bill into law on Flag Day (June 14, 1954)"

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by DougF

OK now that I'm talking about the Pledge
…
this just says if your going to live here and work here your Allegiance should be here too.

The Pledge is actually not only of allegiance to the USA, but to the flag of the USA – which is unsurprising, as the Pledge was written as part of an 1892 advertising campaign by a children’s magazine company seeking to sell American flags to schools.

The Pledge has a fascinating history. Although well and precisely documented, its history is not, I think, widely known.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Originally Posted by CraigD

The Pledge is actually not only of allegiance to the USA, but to the flag of the USA – which is unsurprising, as the Pledge was written as part of an 1892 advertising campaign by a children’s magazine company seeking to sell American flags to schools.

"and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under GOD with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL. Odd for a racist biggott society really.

I also like this one "that ALL men are created EQUAL" apparently africans and native americans weren't men.

As for GOD in the pledge which god is not specified so why make a stink?
If you pray to Ala. He is god to you. Have his name in your heart and mind when you say the pledge. It really doesn't matter which god you follow he/she is your god hence GOD. (or replace GOD with Ala or who ever you follow...7734 if money rules you insert the words CASH or GREED for god!)

As for allegience....sorry but loyalty without question is stupid!
I'll not give my loyalty to a govt. that willfully harms it's own people.
Nor to a govt. that lies to it's people.
Nor to a govt. strives to abridge and or eliminate the rights of it's people.

I want the America that the founding fathers envisioned (minus the racism and bigotry) and fought for.

The only law we need are the 9 commandments, the bill of rights, and the constitution. (laws pertaining to adultry would be a stupid move so minus one)