The US Pledge of Allegiance

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

For 30 years every person of authority has fed me (and you) the same old lies. They proudly proclaim (with their fingers crossed no less ) that as an american I'm lucky. I live in the land of milk and honey. No other nation in the world is as free or well off as the good ol U.S.A.
I say not true. Why?:
Lets start at the begining:
From grades k-12 children and young adults are required (forced) to swear allegience to the U.S. (there are penalties for noncompliance)
There have been many controversies and lawsuits over this in the last decade or so, but for the wrong reason I'm less woried about god being in The Pledge of Allegiance than of the fact it is not optional (what happened to freedom of speach first of all, and second of all this is a binding verbal contract with the government. how many children do you know that fully understand this concept?). Speak or act out against the government you are officially guilty of breach of contract and treason. Why? because you swore to be loyal to them!

MORE EXCITING POSTS TO FOLLOW! (It's past my beddy-bye time!)

Originally Posted by Southtown

To be allegient to one's own society is merely an extension of self-concern. If you refuse to make your home your home, then you are hurting yourself as well as your neighbors.

And remember, in America, you are free to leave.

I retract. Recently I'm thinking that the price of liberty is blood. If you wish to contribute your own blood to freedom, fine... if not pay taxes.

Why does money exist? Because they can't take a tenth of your crops and livestock.

Fuck the man.

Sorry I doubted you.

[dannieyankee]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

For 30 years every person of authority has fed me (and you) the same old lies. They proudly proclaim (with their fingers crossed no less ) that as an american I'm lucky. I live in the land of milk and honey. No other nation in the world is as free or well off as the good ol U.S.A.
I say not true. Why?:
Lets start at the begining:
From grades k-12 children and young adults are required (forced) to swear allegience to the U.S. (there are penalties for noncompliance)
There have been many controversies and lawsuits over this in the last decade or so, but for the wrong reason I'm less woried about god being in The Pledge of Allegiance than of the fact it is not optional (what happened to freedom of speach first of all, and second of all this is a binding verbal contract with the government. how many children do you know that fully understand this concept?). Speak or act out against the government you are officially guilty of breach of contract and treason. Why? because you swore to be loyal to them!

MORE EXCITING POSTS TO FOLLOW! (It's past my beddy-bye time!)

I know this is the very first post, but still.

I'm in Law Class, and the first thing my law teacher told me was that NO, YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO THE PLEDGE. If teachers tell you to, all you have to do is say that according to US Law, no one is required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. The only thing you're required to do is be respectable and QUIET for the people around you that DO want to pledge.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by dannieyankee

I'm in Law Class, and the first thing my law teacher told me was that NO, YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO THE PLEDGE. If teachers tell you to, all you have to do is say that according to US Law, no one is required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. The only thing you're required to do is be respectable and QUIET for the people around you that DO want to pledge.

I agree – though practice may differ from principle.

As I described in post #32, my experience 1960-1975 was that, per 1943’s West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette SCOTUS decision, reciting the Pledge was in fact entirely voluntary.

There’ve been enough reports from people with more recent experience, that I suspect that some US public schools are out of compliance with the law. Such things do happen, and can be very trying (no pun intended) for those involved.

[dannieyankee]

Originally Posted by CraigD

I agree – though practice may differ from principle.

As I described in post #32, my experience 1960-1975 was that, per 1943’s West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette SCOTUS decision, reciting the Pledge was in fact entirely voluntary.

There’ve been enough reports from people with more recent experience, that I suspect that some US public schools are out of compliance with the law. Such things do happen, and can be very trying (no pun intended) for those involved.

I had a teacher in the 4th grade who got mad at me for not standing up during the pledge; I was fixing up some last minute 'bell ringer' assignments, and she saw me not standing and came up to me, grabbed my arm, pulled me up, and said 'You're being very disrespectful.' Well, of course, being nine, I was flustered. But I wish I would have known back then that I could have looked her in the eye and told her it was my right not to pledge, as it was not critical to my learning, and plus, it was a Supreme Court decision. I realise that the biggest problems where this occurs is Elementary schools, where kids can't stand up for themselves, really, and they don't know that they don't have to.

[Boerseun]

You guys are really fortunate if the question of "to pledge or not to pledge" is the biggest problem you've got with your government.

[lemit]

Originally Posted by dannieyankee

I know this is the very first post, but still.

I'm in Law Class, and the first thing my law teacher told me was that NO, YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO THE PLEDGE. If teachers tell you to, all you have to do is say that according to US Law, no one is required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. The only thing you're required to do is be respectable and QUIET for the people around you that DO want to pledge.

MINERSVILLE SCH. DIST. V. BOARD OF EDUC., 310 U. S. 586 (1940) -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez seems to allow schools to require that students recite the Pledge, thus the statement by your teacher. If you were implicitly required or prohibited, your teacher's disclosure, while probably facetious, would be moot.

Just guessing,

--lemit

[lemit]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

From grades k-12 children and young adults are required (forced) to swear allegience to the U.S. (there are penalties for noncompliance)
There have been many controversies and lawsuits over this in the last decade or so, but for the wrong reason I'm less woried about god being in The Pledge of Allegiance than of the fact it is not optional (what happened to freedom of speach first of all, and second of all this is a binding verbal contract with the government. how many children do you know that fully understand this concept?). Speak or act out against the government you are officially guilty of breach of contract and treason. Why? because you swore to be loyal to them!

I think the states are still sovreign in this respect. Yes, everybody, we do still have a republic. The Rehnquist Court, which strongly supported states' rights (except in Bush v. Gore), reverted in the Elk Grove case I cited in my previous post.

The Wiki history, Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, matches dates and case histories I was able to find from other sources, and is a lot less work.

But listen: when I was in a one-room country school, we didn't pledge allegiance, we didn't pray, and we didn't read the bible (in the heart of the Bible Belt). In fact, there wasn't a bible in the school, because all that stuff was taken care of at home and in the Church. That ideal of a bible in every schooldesk and requiring allegiance to country and God in every frontier school, that myth, is the creation of people who weren't there at the time. Dont let them tell you about the mythical American frontier. They don't know and they don't care.

Tolerance is truly an American value, however constantly besieged it might be.

--lemit

p.s. Sorry to those of you unfortunate enough to live in other countries. Our country, America, is much more important and powerful than yours. But you already knew that, didn't you? "It is only the powerful who can't see the mechanism of power at work."

[SidewalkCynic]

Originally Posted by dannieyankee

I know this is the very first post, but still.

I'm in Law Class, and the first thing my law teacher told me was that NO, YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DO THE PLEDGE. If teachers tell you to, all you have to do is say that according to US Law, no one is required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. The only thing you're required to do is be respectable and QUIET for the people around you that DO want to pledge.

Yeah well, is a child required to recite the alphabet in a particular order; or how about being required to believe that 2+2=4, and that there is something called "gravity" that makes people and things fall down - are there laws that prescribe that we do not have to force children to uphold such as truths, or are they allowed to think and learn free of dogma?

I agree the national pledge of alligiance is in violation of the First Amendment; however, I am a states rights advocate and I would not be opposed to state pledges.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by lemit

MINERSVILLE SCH. DIST. V. BOARD OF EDUC., 310 U. S. 586 (1940) -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez seems to allow schools to require that studaents recite the Pledge …

A point of SCOTUS record: West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) explicitly overturned Minersville v. Gobitis (1940).

A side note: It’s interesting (at least to those who find the social and legal history of the pledge interesting) that Minersville v. Gobitis explicitly states that it applies to the pledge with the line "and to the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" vs. “and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". Although not made US public law until 1954, the “under God” version of the pledge is commonly said to have first appeared in 1948 (source). As the only variant of that line as of the SCOTUS’s 1940 decision was an old published version which omitted the word “to”, I’m led to wonder if the “under God” addition was know to the Court 8 years before it’s commonly believed to have appeared.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by SidewalkCynic

.. however, I am a states rights advocate and I would not be opposed to state pledges.

To promote a state pledge, just get a bunch of people to repeat it in whatever gatherings you frequent. A state pledge, or even a county, town, organizational (eg: the Scout Promise), or household pledge is as, or arguably more Constitutionally protected than the Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag is sanctioned by US public law. You can even have it be a pledge to a flag.

Though it was barely in print for a month before it was endorsed by a proclamation (which had no legal significance) by the US President, The Pledge was essentially a sales jingle, being pitched by a magazine company to grow its number of subscribers by promoting the sale of flags to the many local and county-run public and private schools. As an act of what these days might be termed guerilla advertising, it was brilliantly successful, helping to grow its number of subscriptions from 400,000 in 1887 and over 500,000 in 1897 (source), while selling about 26,000 flags (source), and establishing from a small, niche “craft” business a permanent US flag consumer goods manufacturing industry.

Not to be overly cynical, but for such an act of propaganda and advertising to be as successful now as The Pledge was in 1892, I think it needs a large, physical object, like an American flag with stand, etc. After some hours of contemplation, I can’t think of any such object – the best I can imagine is perhaps a 2/3 scale sculpture of the blindfolded goddess Justicia. Merely repeating the 1892 trick with state or other flags would cause hardly a ripple of growth in the now established flag making industry – the statue making business, OTOH, might be ripe for expansion, and able to grow the 21st equivalent of a magazine subscription base along with it.

Without such an object, I don’t think any sort of public ceremony would have much persistence (or staying power) – perhaps as much as Kwanzaa observances in US public schools.