What is the role of public education?

[Fishteacher73]

This started on another thread, but it seemed to be intersting and something I wanted to explore and get your views.

What role does the public school system play in raising todays kids?

There are weaknesses in the current system. Wht do you think they specifically are and what could be done to repair these areas?

Are there variations upon the basic US model that you think would be more effecient and effective? (Such as the European Gymnasium system).

And finally, what role does the public have in the funding of public schools, and how these funds are spent?

[Fishteacher73]

Also I know we have a number of members that are currently students. What is your take on these ideas?

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

What role does the public school system play in raising todays kids?

I think the single biggest problem is that teachers in public schools are limited in their ability to discipline kids. This allows a small number of kids to disrupt a large number of students. Teachers should be able to list behaviors that are precluded, and remove kids from the classrom that cannot comply with the list.

And finally, what role does the public have in the funding of public schools, and how these funds are spent?

The public should certianly fund schooling for all. However, individuals should be able to direct their kids to any school that the parent feels is apporpriate for their child. I feel quite strongly that a voucher system is the most egalitarian, and is the most cost conscious. I am aghast at the cost of our public schools, and at the quality (or lack thereof) that the public money acquires.

I sent both of my older kids to small Catholic schools in their elementary years (none of us are Catholic.) The cost of the education at the little Catholic parish schools was about 50% of the cost of Portland public schools, but, of course, we had to pay for that in cash. I sent both of my kids to Catholic high schools as well. The costs there were only about 80% of the cost of public school, but the quality differential was even greater. The problem in public schools is NOT lack of money. It is that the money does not get to the teachers and students.

Incidentally, I have lots of conversations with friends that are teachers. I am afraid that my population of teachers is a little skewed, since they are all master educated, but I think they mostly agree with me. I will be really interested to hear from the teachers in this forum.

[Fishteacher73]

It does seem that the role schools have in character education is increasing, while the tools that are available are decreasing. This is coupled with the fact that the volume of basic knowledge that we are expected to teach has grown.

I agree that teachers should lead by example in terms of conduct. Unfortunatly this is not suffecient for some that lack this direction at home. The burden has shifted to the educational setting.

Class size is a huge factor. With a lower student to teacher ratio you, as an educator, can focus on the individual needs of the students and hone in on specific problem areas. This is much more difficult when class sizes are larger.

As for the aspect of funding, the voucher system I feel would be a good idea, but the initial aplication would be quite strenuous on the system and would negatively impact those schools that lost the enrolement (Which is how funding is determined currently). There are many good and hard working teacher at low performing schools. I think you will see that there will be demographic trends that follow these students. Send kids with a poor homelife and support stucture to a good school and you will still have a kid that is low performing and the overall quality of the school that the student went to would decline as well. This would probably level off after a time period (years) but more than likely the net result would be a mediocitization of all the schools in general.

[IrishEyes]

Am I allowed to chime in on this one?

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

Am I allowed to chime in on this one?

Heavens, Yes.

[IrishEyes]

What follows is MY OPINION. I am not a teacher in a public school system. My children do not attend public school. I homeschool all six of my children. I have taught both adults and children, and have studied various educational methods and learning styles for many years. However, again I stress that this is only my opinion.

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

What role does the public school system play in raising todays kids?

Today's kids are, by and large, raised by teachers instead of parents. I think that is both unfortunate and potentially devastating to the future of our country, and to the development of children. However, it also seems almost unavoidable, as so many kids are being raised by single parents, and the family core is disintegrating every day. As the place where children spend most of their time, schools are filling the role that was once held by parents and extended families. Parents count on schools, and specifically teachers, to teach their children everything from science and reading to morals. And while many parents adopt a hands-off attitude towards schoolwork, they are very eager to step in when they feel their child has been slighted.

There are weaknesses in the current system. Wht do you think they specifically are and what could be done to repair these areas?
Are there variations upon the basic US model that you think would be more effecient and effective? (Such as the European Gymnasium system).
And finally, what role does the public have in the funding of public schools, and how these funds are spent?

I will continue this later, but have to leave right now. We are FINALLY on our way to the hospital. She just got off the phone and the doc said to come in NOW. So I'm typing as she puts on her shoes.
For those of you that pray, start now. For the rest, just send some good vibes, or whatever it is that you do in a time like this, our way. Direct them towards rural Pennsylvania, and we should do just fine!

I'll be back to finish as soon as I can....

[UncleAl]

What role does the public school system play in raising todays kids?

US zero-goal education ("every child left behind"):

1) To indoctrinate.
2) To justify increasing taxation and public expenditure.
3) To emply unemployables.
4) To purchase minorities' acquiescence.
5) To replace personal responsiblity wth State compensation.
6) To trade political patronage for votes.
7) To create a culture of prescription drug use.
8) To suppress intellectual superiority.
9) To create a minimally capable, maleable laity.
10) To teach the meaning of physical intimidation.

Education is manufacturing process. It should be run as a proper factory, from grading incoming raw material to quality assurance and control to producing a product for which there is a market. Unproductive employees should be terminated. Defective parts should be rejected when detected - only a fool continues to invest in what will be rejected as garbage at the end.

Vigorously cultivate the Gifted. Educate the average student. Remove the semi-ineducable and give them marketable manual trades. Suppress the stupid.

Contemporary education is exactly antithetical to those goals. The results are loathsome and inoperable. An advocate makes virtue of failure. The worse the cure the better the treatment - and the more that is required.

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by UncleAl

...Education is manufacturing process....Unproductive employees should be terminated. Defective parts should be rejected when detected...Vigorously cultivate the Gifted. Educate the average student. Remove the semi-ineducable....Suppress the stupid....

I am glad we can depend on UA to offer a solution that will make any respectable firebrand blanche. I find myself imagining a US congressman with a political deathwish standing in the well of the US House of Representatives and trying to combine "cultivate the gifted" with "suppress the stupid" in such a way that he will survive the path to the exit.

As much as I appreciate the perspective, we have to acknowledge that we are poor prognisticators of which students are likely to be long term successes. Even SATs are weak prognosticators, and they are relatively late flags in the education process. And I do find myself wondering whether a guy like Stephen Hawking might have been placed in the reject pile early on were it not for some extraordinary input.

This certainly is a bit at odds with the apostle Paul: "Admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men" (I Thess 5:14). I could see why you think those folks with religious influence have really messed things up.

[IrishEyes]

Ok, i'm back. Still no baby after 5 hours at the hospital and still very strong contractions!

Well, you may find this hard to believe, but I believe most of what UA said... at least through his 10 points. I think that public education in this country is seriously lacking, to say the least. It begins with teachers that are disgustingly underpaid, and ends with complacent parents and children that just want to finish to get to 'what's next', without fully appreciating where they are going.

I think the biggest problem is that facts are put ahead of thinking. What I mean by that is that children are spoon fed what is important in order to regurgitate it for a standardized test, instead of actually 'learning' WHY those things are important.

I don't agree that education should be a sort of factory. I think that it should be much more individualized. I think that every person has potential to be successful in some area. In an ideal situation, every person would have the opportnity to find their own area of expertise, whether that be academic or voactional, and that area should be allowed to develop. Students should have the chance to learn in the way that is most compatible to them, whether it be books, videos, hands-onb, or whatever.

I have seen how a difference in learning style can greatly affect a child. While my oldest is able to read and comprehend things on her own, my second one needs specific instructions to grasp most things. Is the 2nd one less capable? Not at all. He just needs a different approach in order to grasp certain concepts. My third child is not as interested in academic areas as she is developing inter/intra-personal skills. She is slower with "normal school" stuff, but was able to dial her grandmother's phone number from memory at age 2. She is great with pattern recognition, and has incredible hand/eye coordination. And her memory is amazing. But she thinks she's not as smart as her older sister because she doesn't read as well. Mind you, this kid can remember things like phone numbers, addresses, and recipies like no other person I know. She just can't read all that well.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Having them home now, I am able to work with each of them individually, to develop their strengths and their weaknesses. I am fairly certain that they would not have the same opportunities if they were to attend public school.

Please understand that I hold public educators in the highest regard. I think that most teachers are very hardworking and incredibly dedicated people. Most of them have the best intentions, but are limited by the confines of the machine we call education.

How to correct this problem is something to which I have devoted many hours of thought. There should be many changes, but where to start seems to be my biggest roadblock. So I started at home, with my own children. I have many more opinions on this matter, and relish the opportunity to share them!