If I were King.....

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

I was in the Natural science line. I took, english, french, history, clac, physics, chemistry and biology. It seemed that the basic academic skills (such as grammar) were already expected to have learned by high school....

Emphasis added. It seems to me that this is our core problem, and that we do a poor job of imparting basics. Most kids graduate high school now with only a cursory knowledge of grammar, weak math skills and nearly no knowledge of geography or history. It seem to me that the core problem is to make an 8th grade graduate functionally literate in the core subject so that the student could begin to focus. What grade(s) do/did you teach in Texas?

[Fishteacher73]

7th and 8th... but hopefully no more.. I am trying to get a job as a zookeeper at the FT Worth zoo.

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

7th and 8th... but hopefully no more.. I am trying to get a job as a zookeeper at the FT Worth zoo.

Best of luck on the zoo position. When do you hear the good news?

Do you think a voucher system would drive public funded schools toward better performance? Particularly elementary?

[Fishteacher73]

Originally Posted by Biochemist

Do you think a voucher system would drive public funded schools toward better performance? Particularly elementary?

I think in the long run it could work, but it will wreck all kinds of havoc when it would first be instated, and I feel it would take a few years to actually achieve the desired results, but in the interim the students that were left from the "urban flight" would be in a very poor situation.

[niviene]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

IMO I am a big advocate of the European gymnasium system of education...

For those that are unfamiliar with the system; here is a quick synopsys. (At least the medodology applied in Sweden that I experienced). Grade school is very similar. In the basic equivalence of 8th grade there is an exam. Based on scores, there is a basic split. There is a division from students that pursue academic venues and those that go down vocational lines.

In "high school" you are divided into "lines". Essentailly programs with specific interests. The lines available vary somewhat from school to school, but there are usually a few broad areas. Humanity lines that vary from history, art, languages specialization (A Finnish frind of mine even was in a Dancing line). Scientific lines (Broken into technical [hard sciences, more math and physics] and Natural science lines [more biology, chemistry forused]).

Each line had classes that you went to almost all your classes with the same set of students.

FT, I think this system sounds extraordinarily better than our current standards. The only concern I have is that we are used to treating children here essentially like they are... children. As in, we tend not to let them make drastic life decisions at that age. If they screw around on this test and end up in a line they despise, is there any way to switch over later if they prove they can do the work? Is this test more or less like a proficiency test; does it also involve a personality/psychological test to evaluate the individual's life preferences and what they may want to do with their lives, or is it just sort of whatever parts they excel in naturally (or have learned by that point) is where they land for the rest of their lives? I would really love to see some responsibility put on children - I think the less we give them, the worse they do in school and subsequently in life - and I would be all for giving students tests like that. Something they would be immediately responsible for. I believe that this would give them something to work for, something to be proud of, I suppose, and I think they would certainly realize the importance of it if they knew they had to do well on it or suffer for many years to come (by being placed in an area they did not enjoy or perhaps there were a certain line they would prefer to be in that required more study before the test, etc).

I agree that our schools need help - and after someone recently shared this article (from 2002) with me, I feel so exponentially more strongly. Apparently 11% of our own American students can't locate the United States on a map...but they did know where the island in Survivor is. If that doesn't scare a few people, then I think there is nothing left to be scared about. :P

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...perSurvey.html

[JerryB]

I would like to see a more radical overhaul of education. I'd like to
take a big step back and rethink it from the beginning. I believe that
the goal of education is, or should be, to prepare young people to
function as adults. To pursue that purpose I would ask what kind of
learning would best prepare them for their future roles? What do they
need to know most?

Traditionally schools begin with basic literacy. Reading writing
and arithmetic. No argument there. I guess you've got to begin
with the basics. But granting that what is the next priority?

I believe that the most important decision every person makes
in their life is choosing a career, or choosing to not choose a career.
But one way or another just about everyone has to deal with it
except maybe my son the prince, who will be king one day after
I'm gone.

Women may choose in large numbers to marry and become
homemakers. That is also a career. And I'm sure many women
choose it because they feel it's expected of them. And might not
choose it if they were better informed of the alternatives.

What I'm getting at here is the need for people growing up to
be better and more fully informed about the realities of the
workaday world.

There is such an enormous number of possibilities to choose
from and I feel that for the most part young people have only
the vaguest idea of what specific careers entail. Television and
movies no doubt have a lot of influence. But the impressions
they convey are in the context of a drama and so, obviously,
they are dramatized. They don't give a true to life impression.

There are just so many and varied possibilities, so many types
of employment that each person should be informed about and
consider that I have come to believe that this should be the focal
point of education and should be part of the curriculum from the
first year of school.

And going on from there to add additional subjects of study, again
the question should be considered from the standpoint of what
is most essential to the life of a successful adult.

What comes to mind secondly is the problem of marriage, of a
successful marriage. That study could wait until high school
and may not need to be carried on for more that one year but
I do believe people would benefit from a knowledge of what
factors in a marriage most often precipitate divorce. What are
the most typical mistakes people make when choosing a mate
and what kinds of marriages are most successful?

In a similar way I think it would not be too soon to teach some
fundamental facts about raising children, about parenting. In any
case, if it isn't taught in high school, it's not likely to be taught
anyplace else. And just a little education and understanding
could prevent an awful lot of damage to young children.

What else? How about problems of adolescence
to help kids get to know themselves better?

I could go on but I'll add just one more for now - Thinking Skills.
Teach thinking skills because up until know thinking, at
least in my experience, is largely discouraged except
for some of the more progressive schools.
Instead of thinking, students are encouraged to remember
and repeat. That does tend to train them to be docile,
easily managed adults and maybe there is some benefit
in that but still . . well, enough, what do you think?

[infamous]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

oh, well sorry for the misinterpertation.

Not a big deal Orby.

[JerryB]

Hmm? Seems like soon as I get here everybody goes home.
Maybe I need a shower. (JerryB sniffs armpits.)

[gubba]

g'day folks,

Fish : what, in your view, are the strengths and weaknesses of education in Texas as against your preferred ideal?

Bio: wonder what you feel is relevant in the following?

Parameters for public education, in no particular order except, perhaps, the first.
a. determine who is responsible for establishing the principles and running the system
b. ensuring a functional next generation
c. enhancing an individual's development, (Irish Eyes' dream)
d.trying to ensure a suitable minimum general knowledge and cultural understanding in the interests of social cohesion. The cynics might say in the interests of the elite etc.etc.

Some issues that need addressing:
1. Whatever the system, teacher morale.
2. Set pragmatic goals that stand a chance of being achieved.
3. Ensure variety of both goals and methods of delivery as our history shows the "one size fits all" definition of rationality is oxymoronic.

That'll do for starters, perhaps some of the above may help frame some of the discussion,then again perhaps it won't. More than a little interested in some of our continental friends' take on this issue and what about the situation in Japan Jerry? Downunder, we keep hearing about educational related suicides at the end of secondary schooling. cheers gub.

[JerryB]

Originally Posted by gubba

what about the situation in Japan Jerry? Downunder, we keep hearing about educational related suicides at the end of secondary schooling. cheers gub.

So you've been hearing about that have you?
I guess it still happens but to tell the truth I
haven't been paying much attention to it. I
work in the much less stressful field of adult
education and seldom pay much attention to
events in Japan. Seems like you know more
about it than I do.