Political Consensus

[Turtle]

___Yes I am saying just that. How many excellant minds claimed the Earth is at the center of the solar system or that humans can never fly? If you want consensus then you need to teach reasoning, not blind obedience.

[bartock]

Originally Posted by Turtle

___Yes I am saying just that. How many excellant minds claimed the Earth is at the center of the solar system or that humans can never fly? If you want consensus then you need to teach reasoning, not blind obedience.

yes there never should be blind obedience.but...........

[bartock]

are you saying that each person born has to formulate his own ideas of morality and proper behavior based on his ability to reason? this pretty much leaves the field open to let all people do what they wish whenever they feel like it. observation should convince that a great number of people find it difficult to reason at all. you're also saying that the many centuries of excellent minds agreeing on proper social behavior has no significance. if we have to depend on each person's use of reason, i think we would quickly have anarchy and there would be no reason for law.

well we dont have to reenvent the wheel.
imagine if the anarchist reached the consensus on what is good and evil,right or wrong and their defination of morality family values. what kind of society we would have?
rontian khari ho rai hen!

[Turtle]

___To paraphrase the Desiderata, "whether you know it or not, the Universe is unfolding as it should".
___I never meant to imply throwing out the past "wisdom" just because it's old, but rather to say it must meet the challenge of reason. If it doesn't then modify it appropriately or throw it out.
___I'm no anarchist in this, but rather I think a realist. The idea of complete political consensus is as tenuous as Plato's absolute forms.

[bartock]

Originally Posted by Turtle

___To paraphrase the Desiderata, "whether you know it or not, the Universe is unfolding as it should".
___I never meant to imply throwing out the past "wisdom" just because it's old, but rather to say it must meet the challenge of reason. If it doesn't then modify it appropriately or throw it out.
___I'm no anarchist in this, but rather I think a realist. The idea of complete political consensus is as tenuous as Plato's absolute forms.

yes we need realist, positive, kind and enlightened anarchists, soon if the world is to change for the good.

[C1ay]

But there are more than just two points of view, i.e. liberal vs conservative. For the most part I am libertarian and belief foremost in liberty. I live my life by treating others as I wish to be treated and in that I base my morals.

I do not believe in any entitlements. IMO it is immoral to take the bread one man has earned and give it to another. No one is entitled to the fruits of another man's labor.

It is easy to see why any man should not kill another or steal from him unless your feel it is OK for others to do that to you. Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Affirmative action is discrimination with some pretty name. It is wrong.

Academic standards should never be lowered. Calculators should not be allowed in math class. Spell check should be disabled on the schools computers and students forced to learn to spell correctly.

Just my 2¢,

[questor]

to those who say we need anarchists to make a better world, pray tell where anarchy has made a better society? as far as the ancient rules, which of the 10 commandments needs to be rewritten? why do you think your ''reasoning'' will promote a better society than following the rules older societies used? inner man has not changed and the golden rule has not changed,only the techology used by man has changed.

[questor]

Anarchism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Anarchism in culture.

Anarchism is a term which encompasses a variety of political philosophies, social movements, and political ideologies that advocate the abolition of all forms of coercion. Individual freedom and opposition to the State are the unvarying principles of anarchism; less agreed upon are such matters as the role of violence in changing society, the preferred type of economic system, the support, rejection, or interpretation of egalitarian ideals, and the degree of organization desirable to effect social change.

The terms "anarchy" and "anarchism" are derived from the Greek αναρχία ("without archons (rulers)"). Thus "anarchism," in its most general meaning, is the belief that rulership is unnecessary and should be abolished. The word "anarchy", as most anarchists use it, does not imply chaos or anomie, but rather a stateless society with voluntary social harmony. All proponents of anarchism argue that relations based upon voluntary cooperation (as opposed to statism) will lead to a society of free individuals

my words: read the last sentence. it states ''that relations based upon voluntary
cooperation''.... how can you have this voluntary cooperation without consensus?

[Turtle]

___Again, I do not propose anarchy or support its view. I support challenging authority with reason.
___As if the ten commandments were the end-all be-all of moral grounds; I do not concede this. Unless you can produce the supposed god that gave them, I throw out the "have no gods before me" right off the top. Then there's the debate about whether they say don't "murder" or don't "kill". Out Then out with taking god's name in vain. What honor is due an abusive parent? Out. Dont lie? Out as from our earlier discussion. Adultery by whose definition? Catholics? Baptists? Muslims? Jews? Tribes in New Guinea? Out.
___It is a paradox in that the main consensus you bring me to is that we disagree.

[questor]

Turtle, would i want you to mentor my children? or be beside me in a battle? or teach
morality to others? or be my president?