Similarities in homosexuals - genetic?

[geokker]

I wasn't quite sure where to put this post - there is no 'Biology' section. Please move it if it is better suited elsewhere.

Why is it I see so many homosexuals with strikingly similar morphological and behavioural attributes? For instance, yesterday I say three lesbian couples. At least one member of each couple was dressed as a man e.g. straight jeans, plain t-shirt, dark sunglasses , short hair, boots etc. Physically, they were all short, stocky/muscular, square faced. Their behaviour was set featured, stern even.

The clothes and mannerisms I can understand, but the phenotypic attributes seem fairly evident of a genetic source to me.

Am I way off base here? Is there any evidence that homosexuality has a genetic basis?

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by geokker

Why is it I see so many homosexuals with strikingly similar morphological and behavioural attributes?

If you saw two "normal" guys walking down the street, would you assume they were gay?

I say you find what you look for.

[EWright]

Originally Posted by geokker

I wasn't quite sure where to put this post - there is no 'Biology' section. Please move it if it is better suited elsewhere.

Why is it I see so many homosexuals with strikingly similar morphological and behavioural attributes? For instance, yesterday I say three lesbian couples. At least one member of each couple was dressed as a man e.g. straight jeans, plain t-shirt, dark sunglasses , short hair, boots etc. Physically, they were all short, stocky/muscular, square faced. Their behaviour was set featured, stern even.

The clothes and mannerisms I can understand, but the phenotypic attributes seem fairly evident of a genetic source to me.

Am I way off base here? Is there any evidence that homosexuality has a genetic basis?

I'd say we "key in on" the "stereotypical" homosexuals moreso, because they fit an idea that we have in mind or are easy to relate to ideas we have or others we have seen of 'that type' who were memorable. However, I'd say it they transend a larger portion of phenotypes that aren't so obvious and therefore you don't notice as readily.

I think there may be "trends" within their culture as to behavior and such as well. It doesn't seem to me that so many (if any) gay men spoke the way they do now (lispy quasi-feminine speech), say 50 years ago. Granted, gays weren't as open then as they are now, but the ones that were around didn't talk that way.

I happen to be biracial (black and white) and was raised in a very white area as a child. When I moved to the city, many black children felt I acted or spoke "white". Point being, this type of speach is characteristic of what you are exposed to... not inherited or genetic. So this type of speech IMO is based on a perpetuation of a type of behavior initially exhibited by a few, which has become 'popular' and incorportated into the larger (male) community. I assume its similar with women. And as society has become more accepting... OR their community has become more open, I suspect there is also a desire to distance themselves in some ways from the perceptions of the larger community, in order to feel an increased sense of an individual and separate community, with its own 'culture' and behaviors (aside from just sexual behaviors), etc.

I do think there is some degree of masculinity in gay woman as you describe, as well as obvious femininity in many gay men... I'm just saying I think there are many who do not display these traits as well. When you see a person of a ceratin ethnicity, you can be relatively certain of what ethnicity they are. But you can not automatically assume that a feminine acting man is gay, or a more masculine woman is a lesbian. I think there are also degrees of "gayness" in which some are likely more prone to become so due to the way they were born, and that sociological factors are a larger influence for others.

[Tormod]

Great post, EWright.

[geokker]

Taking the example of 'masculine lesbians', might this be an example of a genetic predispostion to male traits manifesting themselves as a preference to women and masculine behaviour? Judging by what I hear (not an expert, haven't performed a study etc.), they're also into dominant, penetrative sexual practices.

I'm interested to learn of/from published scientific studies on the possible genetic derivation of homosexuality. Mr. Google hasn't turned up too many interesting articles for me, strangely.

[alxian]

or male lesbians.. guys who appear gay but are straight. claiming to be women, lesbians, trapped in male bodies.



that has to be one of the oddest feelings for [black] kids brought up in predominantly white neighborhoods.

i imagine it happens in other place men can travel. south africa perhaps where the white kids are the minority.

to be white washed and then labelled by your peers. then to be shunned by the white kids and black kids both.

you can only get by on the content of your character after that. or befriend other outcasts.


its more fuel for the theory that man isn't the sum of his genetics but the programming he recieves after birth until death.

[EWright]

Originally Posted by alxian

or male lesbians.. guys who appear gay but are straight. claiming to be women, lesbians, trapped in male bodies.



that has to be one of the oddest feelings for [black] kids brought up in predominantly white neighborhoods.

i imagine it happens in other place men can travel. south africa perhaps where the white kids are the minority.

to be white washed and then labelled by your peers. then to be shunned by the white kids and black kids both.

you can only get by on the content of your character after that. or befriend other outcasts.


its more fuel for the theory that man isn't the sum of his genetics but the programming he recieves after birth until death.

Interesting: Ignorance and understanding all in the same post. There was no oddness about it, as I didn't desire to be anything than what I was. There was no desire to be 'more black' or 'more white'. Minneapolis is very much a melting pot, as it was at this time in the '70s. There was no "shunning" by other kids, black or white. Rather, it was kids' ways of expressing themselves over differences they see relative to what they are accustom to in most cases (their perspective). From my perspective, it was moreso the opposite of being shunned, as you find that you are more readily accepted by either group in many cases, than you the two groups would be accepting of each other. In otherwords, with a biracial background and shared/combined qualities of both cultures, you find you are able to relate to both interchangably and can view it as having 'the best of both worlds. Of course this won't apply to all people with such an upbringing, but be careful about making blanket assumptions. Never in my life have I felt like an "outcast" due to being biracial or in regards to race relations. I have at times felt "out of touch" to the degree that I feel I should feel with black culture and history due to being brought up by my mother's side of the family, which is white. But I have always felt being biracial was to my benefit, as opposed to an alienating factor.

As for programming as opposed to genetics, in this regard. I would agree your behaviors, speech, manerisms, ideas, perceptions, etc. very much stem from your surroundings, peers, parents/siblings, moreso than they do from any sort of genetic influence. Some things such as learning difficulties, speech impairments, behavioral issues, etc. can be genetic. But as far as your personality, that is primarily a learned/taught behavior.

As this relates to the actual issue of this post... if we can get back on topic... I think many of the similar behaviors that homosexuals exhibit are influenced by the larger growing homosexual community as a sort of 'self identification' as it relates to the larger group. I find it somewhat odd, as it seems to me as somewhat of a "trend" as opposed to somewhat natural. However, I see room for my own ignorance in this view because I've heard similar comments from ignorant (in this case) white people in regards to "the way black people talk" in that they believe its a matter of choice, rather than a genuine dialect stemming from the environment in which one is raise. Thus, as such behaviors become a part of the gay community, and as young gays relate more openly to other gays and are thus influenced by the larger community in forming their own identities, these traits will become a part of their life experience and upbringing and who they are at their very core.

[geokker]

I think many of the similar behaviors that homosexuals exhibit are influenced by the larger growing homosexual community as a sort of 'self identification' as it relates to the larger group

Indeed, we are all largely influenced by our surroundings. The more concentrated the social grouping, the more profound the influences. Chuck in a common oppression and you'll get a faith.

Every single natural phenotypic aspect of an organism is the expression of genes. Skin colour, eye colour, height etc. The extended phenotype can manifest itself in similar but more elaborate aspects like weaver bird nests and termite mounds - not learnt - genetic. I believe there is also a genetic basis for behaviour. Like the beaver builds a dam, some of use gravitate to the same sex and express ourselves in a fashion closer to the opposite sex - a genetic imbalance perhaps.

The killer question here is: if there is a heritable gene(s) for homosexuality - why has it not been selected out of the human gene pool? This is considering the negligible yield of homosexuals in terms of children.

I realize this is a tiny stray from the topic.

[EWright]

Originally Posted by geokker

Indeed, we are all largely influenced by our surroundings. The more concentrated the social grouping, the more profound the influences. Chuck in a common oppression and you'll get a faith.

Every single natural phenotypic aspect of an organism is the expression of genes. Skin colour, eye colour, height etc. The extended phenotype can manifest itself in similar but more elaborate aspects like weaver bird nests and termite mounds - not learnt - genetic. I believe there is also a genetic basis for behaviour. Like the beaver builds a dam, some of use gravitate to the same sex and express ourselves in a fashion closer to the opposite sex - a genetic imbalance perhaps.

The killer question here is: if there is a heritable gene(s) for homosexuality - why has it not been selected out of the human gene pool? This is considering the negligible yield of homosexuals in terms of children.

I realize this is a tiny stray from the topic.

See the post I began a couple of weeks ago called "Homosexual evolution?" under the evolution forum.

[geokker]

Yes, I think you're covering it in your thread. I believe homosexuality is an expressed genotype - just need some scientific findings.