Moneyless society : Would it benefit society?

[scottk]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Your method would merely create a black market for different goods and services. Remember, people will act outside of a system if it is in their best benefit, so any economic system must take this into account.

I can understand your point but how will there be a black market if cash ceases to exist? All basic needs will be essentially free and all other items would essentially be "status symbols" if you will, indicating that the person has contributed something of a certain level. There may be some abuses to the system that would need to be taken into account, but I don't think a "black market" will be one of them. There are also checks and balances that I have in mind that I think would help.

Besides, I'm not claiming to have all of the necessary details but I do have the vision of how it would operate. The details would need to be written down and researched and discussed at length until most if not all issues have been addressed.

There would need to be people like you involved to point out possible flaws or holes which would then be resolved.

[Zythryn]

Your ideas are interesting, but is not a replacement of money as the OP envisioned. It is just a cashless form of currency.

[scottk]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Your ideas are interesting, but is not a replacement of money as the OP envisioned. It is just a cashless form of currency.

Agreed. Yes, it is to an extent except that there wouldn't be an "exchange" of currency the way I envision it. There's not enough space here I think to explain it all and don't want to bore people to death so I'll try to be brief: It would be similar, in my view, in some small way, to a "rewards" account with some company like Marriott where you automatically get an upgraded room or suite based upon what you've contributed to the company (in this case money through a series of hotel stays but in what I'm proposing it would be what you've done through your work). What I'm proposing is obviously much more complex and much larger of a system, but just as you don't exchange anything extra to get the upgrade, you wouldn't exchange anything to get the item you want. Just like the rewards club though there would be limits such as you can't go in and get upgrades on 20 hotel rooms at the same time. In this case perhaps you wouldn't be able to go get 5 houses at your current level and then hand them out to your friends but only 2 for yourself to have as a primary and vacation residence. That kind of thing would be agreed upon amongst the people in the "community" that is involved. Again, this is just the framework that would have to be discussed at length to come up with the final version that would be implemented.

[scottk]

Originally Posted by scottk

Agreed. Yes, it is to an extent except that there wouldn't be an "exchange" of currency the way I envision it. There's not enough space here I think to explain it all and don't want to bore people to death so I'll try to be brief: It would be similar, in my view, in some small way, to a "rewards" account with some company like Marriott where you automatically get an upgraded room or suite based upon what you've contributed to the company (in this case money through a series of hotel stays but in what I'm proposing it would be what you've done through your work). What I'm proposing is obviously much more complex and much larger of a system, but just as you don't exchange anything extra to get the upgrade, you wouldn't exchange anything to get the item you want. Just like the rewards club though there would be limits such as you can't go in and get upgrades on 20 hotel rooms at the same time. In this case perhaps you wouldn't be able to go get 5 houses at your current level and then hand them out to your friends but only 2 for yourself to have as a primary and vacation residence. That kind of thing would be agreed upon amongst the people in the "community" that is involved. Again, this is just the framework that would have to be discussed at length to come up with the final version that would be implemented.

And... quick note... the "community" can be a small village that we're talking about or the entire country or the entire world for that matter. I'm thinking it would have to be implemented on a small basis first, such as a "corporate city", proven, and then adopted elsewhere.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by scottk

but just as you don't exchange anything extra to get the upgrade, you wouldn't exchange anything to get the item you want. Just like the rewards club though there would be limits such as you can't go in and get upgrades on 20 hotel rooms at the same time. In this case perhaps you wouldn't be able to go get 5 houses at your current level and then hand them out to your friends but only 2 for yourself to have as a primary and vacation residence. That kind of thing would be agreed upon amongst the people in the "community" that is involved.

But this is still commerce.
You are basically just calling 'money' by another name 'reward points'.
All money is, is an exchange of trust. The community already agrees upon the value of items in the 'units of trust' that are exchanged.
With your system, you are just adding limits to what people can do with the 'trust units' they have earned.
While this in and of itself would be difficult to get people to accept, it is far easier than the OP which does away with the idea of value all-together.
So while I like you idea, to an extent, it seems to be for a 'cashless' society, not a moneyless society the original poster proposed.
Another interesting idea, I just want to make sure any readers (as well as myself) are clear about what you are proposing. If I am off base, please let me know.

[belovelife]

i think we should have a credit society where the amount of credits you have is proportional to education and moral status

and all the kids in school have the same credits
althought spcifically ood students get bonuses

[scottk]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

But this is still commerce.
You are basically just calling 'money' by another name 'reward points'.
All money is, is an exchange of trust. The community already agrees upon the value of items in the 'units of trust' that are exchanged.
With your system, you are just adding limits to what people can do with the 'trust units' they have earned.
While this in and of itself would be difficult to get people to accept, it is far easier than the OP which does away with the idea of value all-together.
So while I like you idea, to an extent, it seems to be for a 'cashless' society, not a moneyless society the original poster proposed.
Another interesting idea, I just want to make sure any readers (as well as myself) are clear about what you are proposing. If I am off base, please let me know.

Perhaps you're right except for the use of the word exchange. My main desires with this system are 1. Non-transferability. The only person who can accumulate it is the person who earned it. No one can steal it, no one can manipulate it, etc, and it cannot be handed down which means that the children have to earn it just as the parents did. 2. Basics are without requirement other than to be a part of the system. 3. Some form of reward is given for people to have a built-in set of incentives to do their best in life.

I don't want any changing of hands of the "currency" or "credit" in any way.

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by scottk

I can understand your point but how will there be a black market if cash ceases to exist? All basic needs will be essentially free and all other items would essentially be "status symbols" if you will, indicating that the person has contributed something of a certain level. There may be some abuses to the system that would need to be taken into account, but I don't think a "black market" will be one of them. There are also checks and balances that I have in mind that I think would help.

Besides, I'm not claiming to have all of the necessary details but I do have the vision of how it would operate. The details would need to be written down and researched and discussed at length until most if not all issues have been addressed.

There would need to be people like you involved to point out possible flaws or holes which would then be resolved.

If everybody's needs are met, are their wants met as well? Let's say that there's a lot of stuff I want. I don't need it, but I really want it. A big screen television. A nice car. Maybe there are other things I have that I don't want as much that somebody else wants. So, we decide that it makes sense to trade them without the go-between of these credits.

Maybe I want to do some illegal drugs. I clearly can't use my credits for that, so I have to come up with some other way to pay for them. Either I'm going to have to develop another system of money, or I'm going to have to barter - either way it's a black market.


Anybody can come up with an economic system that gets everybody what they need. That's not difficult. What's difficult is coming up with an economic system that deals with what people want.

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by scottk

Perhaps you're right except for the use of the word exchange. My main desires with this system are 1. Non-transferability. The only person who can accumulate it is the person who earned it. No one can steal it, no one can manipulate it, etc, and it cannot be handed down which means that the children have to earn it just as the parents did. 2. Basics are without requirement other than to be a part of the system. 3. Some form of reward is given for people to have a built-in set of incentives to do their best in life.

I don't want any changing of hands of the "currency" or "credit" in any way.

Non-transferability isn't inherent in that system, it merely makes it more awkward to do so. I have to use my credit to buy something to transfer to somebody else if I want to give them money. More than likely, some form of currency would emerge, like in this story about prisoners:
Mackerel Economics in Prison Leads to Appreciation for Oily Fillets - WSJ.com

[scottk]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Non-transferability isn't inherent in that system, it merely makes it more awkward to do so. I have to use my credit to buy something to transfer to somebody else if I want to give them money. More than likely, some form of currency would emerge, like in this story about prisoners:

There might be some small amount of this but it would never take off due to it's limitations. It would be necessary to find participants which would not be so easy to do as it is in a prison since it would be fairly easy for someone to earn their way to what they want.

The question of "wants" is a difficult question to address since it brings out a lot of emotions, specifically ego and pride if you can call those emotions. We have become a "want" nation and even a "want" world to the detriment of everything else, including our health. We WANT cigarettes, we WANT huge TV's, we WANT destructive video games and horror movies, (I say "we" loosely since most of these things are not what I personally want) we want money, we want power, we want freedom to do whatever the f#$% we want to do. We can tell this because we put our wants above our needs at every stage. We need health and food and shelter, but the big screen TV comes first. We need a good education, but the $150 sneakers come first. We need good mentors, but the f-word laced rap music comes first (I have no idea why on this one - it sucks in my opinion).

I think much of this will be tamed when the top rewards in society come from doing positive things such as teaching and there is no need unmet. We'll never eliminate all negativity, since some people are just wired that way, but we can eliminate the motivation behind the positive people turning negative.

The comment that it's easy to create an economy that meets the needs is unfounded since none have done so completely. We have huge populations in the world, including within the US that don't get enough food to eat nor a good enough education nor adequate health care and shelter. If it were so easy to deal with that list then we wouldn't have these conditions.