The Evolution of Education

[Tormod]

IrishEyes - I can certainly understand your concern about the public school system. I have children myself but they are not yet at school age. We live in Norway and I have no qualms sending my daughters to a public school (well, we hardly have any private schools, and they are mostly religious), but the state of affairs is not exactly what it should be in a rich country like Norway.

I think one problem is standardization, yes. Any educational system also has the problem of having to teach huge amounts of kids the same things year after year, while trying to keep up with general progress (even technical - witness the IT revolution...). There will of course never be a consensus on exactly what a school should teach.

I recently saw a program on Swedish television about a school where they had no homework. These kids actually learnt much more - and had much more free time, which I think is more important to kids than endless rote learning. How they spend this free time is of course important, but a slightly different issue.

I am not sure that teaching the same things and using the same textbooks is a real problem (as long as the textbooks are good). I think the problem is how the system encourages rote learning instead of critical thinking. The kids learn that things work in this and that way, but not *why* or for what reason.

A lot of bright kids come out of every school system, so it can't be all bad. But there is certainly something not quite right. It could be funding, level of quality among teachers, availability of good material, etc etc.

I don't have anything wise to say here, I guess. Just wanted to chime in. I know I was extremely tired of school when I graduated from high school in 1989.

Tormod

[IrishEyes]

Tormod, thanks for your opinion.

I agree with many of your ideas. I disagree with rote learning. And I totally support the no homework/more free time idea. We homeschool, and that is basically how we do things. Of course, it was a hard sell for a husband who was used to institution-type learning. However, as my youngest son learned to read in less than 3 months, with no 'formal' lessons, no intervention, and no pressure, my husband now thinks maybe I'm not sucha hippie when it comes to education. I have a lot of radical ideas, but most of them have already been published in one form or another. I love reading anything by John Holt for inspiration. Those are great books if you have more than one child and they display very different attitudes towards learning.

Oh, BTW, the mail lady dropped off the book you suggested today, Freethinker. So after my LONG weekend visit with my atheist brother and darling niece, I'll start it and let you know what I think. Again, thanks for the suggestion, it looks AWESOME!

[Freethinker]

Oh man! Talk about a subject I could write a book about! At least just to cover my observations, ideas, experience, ...

First I have to acknowledge that living in the US, I can only speak to and from that experience.

First, the education system in the US is all screwed up. I feel the basic fault for this is that the Public Education system is being pulled in every direction from all the various ideologies. It is trying to be/ not be, so many things, it is not doing anything well. One side wants to defund it with the goal to eliminate it. (No irisheyes, I am NOT a Libertarian) Others wwant to force their ideology into it's curriculum. Some think the best method is local control, others Federal intervention. What we wind up with is so many pushes and pulls from every direction that it can't do anything of value.

Then there is the issue of the Educational Empire itself. Lots of little fiefdoms. Each class, school, district, state trying to fight for it's own existence. Each person trying to secure their future income.

AS is expressed in the book I reccommended (and irisheyes is about to read) one of the problems is these outside influences. The politicos want the students to be taught Patriotism. That is to promote that countries current structure as superior to all others. That at the cost of factual extensive education. Others want to see their personal ideology interjected, such as Creationists. This etends to all areas of education.

e.g. all History texts published in the US go thru committees before being published. There are committees from most politically selected ideology. There is a Catholic committee that makes sure that nothing in the history books casts too negative of a light on Catholicism. Not detailed attack on such efforts as the Crusades or Inquisition. Oh they are mentioned, but not in any way that would make them seem BAD. There is an Islamic committee, to make sure that history books don't say anything bad about it.... Of course Pagan, Atheist, ... groups are not given this level of control. For instance, I have never heard of a US History class anywhere in the US that discusses the Treaty with Tripoli. It is an official document, passed unanomously by the 1st Congress, started by Washington, signed by Adams, that states "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,---". But you can be sure that the Christian committees would never let this historical document thru.

And what of morality? Public Schools are so afraid of teaching something that this or that group is against, they teach nothing. Well, OK, that is not entirely correct. They teach what the group with the most political pull forces them to. Such as Abstinence Only. Even though this approach has PROVED to be HARMFUL, it is the only one that is funded and as the schools are so underfunded, they accept the money and restrict teaching other, more useful aproaches. Or the infamous D.A.R.E. program. PROVEN time after time to actually INCREASE the possiblity of alcohol, tobacco and drug use by those taking it, it stays well funded and popular in schools.

The schools also do not want to approach morals and ethics from a SECULAR direction, that is one that does not promote any specific singular sectarian version. Otherwise this or that Sectarian group would complain that it's ideology is being attacked.

Thus NOTHING is taught.

We also hear about local control. I was a "Community Representitive" in my kids' "Site Committee". It was a group who's mission was to differentiate itself from every other school that exists anywhere in the world. I had hoped it's mission was to IMPROVE the shcool with one tool being knowledge gained by other schools. But NO! We spent our time trying to identify ways that we were different from the school a mile away. It was merely to justify the expense of additional School Admin people needed to have site committees for each school.

Then we hear about Vouchers. As is the case, this i

[Tim_Lou]

education in the united states are pretty good. (better than china, really)

one thing i wannt point out, is that school is like a jail. really, there are all kinds of restriction. back in china, there is a little break between every periods, during that time, you can do whatever you want and have some fun. and you wont feel that your trapped into a little buildings.

this is what is lacking in here, periods after periods, really boring, even in lunch period you gotta stay in cafe. thats so boring! this really affects the motivation to learn.

(it is about my school, dont know if its the same to others)

[Tim_Lou]

another thing is that there are so many restriction for high level classes. what i mean is that if i wanna jump over certain course and go to ap class or whatever. you need lots of recommendation and stuffs.

as you know, im a chinese, my english is not very good obviously. but the science classes are WAY TOO STUPID than what my level really is. but they wont let me jump over certain classes, even if i said that i learnt all these in china. (im getting A+ in math and science class w/out really studying)

the thing is, they dont give you a chance, you dont have a chance to exert what your really good at.


(this is only for my school...)
(and, im living in NJ)

[Tim_Lou]

another thing i wanna point out.

colleges care too much about the SAT!!!! damn SAT!!!
im good studient, but not good in english, now im goona mess in the SAT, and in college and my life!!!!

SAT means nothing, the math part is stupid, the english part is only about vocabs. im gonna be doing really bad on the eng part and mess up my college life!

[Tim_Lou]

yes, tormod, i agree w/ you, im so tried of high school even though im still in it.
T_T

"high school sux" thats almost everybody's opinion of high school.

[Tim_Lou]

ok, last thing here, the subjects level are way too low!
there are too many stupid stuffs being taught in school!

i dont know if its really the case, but the level is really low compare to those i leant in china.


(sry for making so many posts, this is the last one...)

[Freethinker]

Tim_lou, you sound very frustrated. Schools are quite different from one area to another. So I can not speak for your area directly. But part of the problem is exactly that. The US has the cahnce to show dramatic savings and advancement by unifying the entire countries school system. Instead every block in the US wants local control. Multiplying costs darmatically because of the required redundancy. So improved processes discovered in one area are not dupilcated, which means the mistakes made while learning, are repeated many many times.

As I say, I have no idea what the environment is like in your area. What populous of your ethnicity there is locally. Public Systems, including Schools, can affort to and are more motivated to have ethnic specific programs if there is enough people to take advantage of it.

Somewhere in the US there is a critical mass of students of your background and specific needs. They probably have specific programs in place to help resolve the issues you have. Try researching them on line. You probably know parts of the US that have higher penetration of your enthnicity. Or maybe your area is high? I don't know. Maybe they need to be pushed by an organized group of you and your peers. There have to be a lot of people having the same problem you do. If you spent some of the time you just spent complaigning, Googleing, you could find solutions.

Chinese SAT II Preparation Class
http://www.newconcept.com/English/School/

Different part of the country, but they may have some resources or ideas for you. Check for others. If there is a particular college you are interested in, contact them early and open a dialog about the problem. You might even find special scholarships.

Yes SAT's and tests in general are the mantra of the day in education. That is because of the current fight against the Conservatives/ Religious Right/ Republicans attempts to destroy the public education system. This is an ideological battle. And you are stuck in the middle of it.

As far as the restrictions you have. Hey, that's life! Some people go thru their entire life on the punch clock, getting specifically defined time periods for personal needs. Suck it up and deal with it.

[Tim_Lou]

yeah, your right. and im trying to solve these problems right now.

but ive seen SO MANY CHINESE gave up, we dont really have a choice, college is mainly 2 years college for us. SAT I? many of my friends did really bad on them. theyr not bad students, they do get As.

well, i know its hard... but there is a problem....