America the myth

[freeztar]

Good points questor.

As far as other countries to live in...
Norway sounds awesome! It's a diverse country with very little crime and the standard of living there is very high. Shoot, they pay you to take a vacation in the winter.
If it wasn't for the climate there, I'd be happy to move to Norway. Same goes for Canada.

Though I have many qualms about how America is run, it is still one of the best (if not the best) country to live in for me. I don't think any of the Americans here would disagree with me. It's just the American way to rebel against (complain about) injustices.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Good points questor.

As far as other countries to live in...
Norway sounds awesome! It's a diverse country with very little crime and the standard of living there is very high. Shoot, they pay you to take a vacation in the winter.
If it wasn't for the climate there, I'd be happy to move to Norway. Same goes for Canada.

Though I have many qualms about how America is run, it is still one of the best (if not the best) country to live in for me. I don't think any of the Americans here would disagree with me. It's just the American way to rebel against (complain about) injustices.

New Zealand's quite nice. Some of the countries in northern Europe look good. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's all I got.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

questor-

And I'd give a rat's potato bout your persistence if you actually offered up more than "If you don't like it get out".

The fact is that "America" and America the reality are two very different things.
...there are the rights we are "guarantied" by various documents and those we actually have...there's our supposed prosperity and there is reality....etc.etc...
Which is the spirit and intention of the discussion in this thread

Either offer proof that it is not so (and America is everyhting it is claimed to be), proof that it is, or give it a rest....we all get the point.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by questor

... the Rockefellers, Mellons, Carnegies, Gates and Buffets are not poor. Not all of them are conservative either, but I think they would agree that earning your own money is better than a handout. America does have a wealth disparity. How did the rich get rich? Figure that out and follow the same principles, maybe you'll get the same result.

I think there’s no great mystery about how the rich get rich in nearly any capitalist society, although the reason is likely nearly the opposite of what I suspect questor intends to hint at. One get rich by having one’s income not tightly correlated with ones labor.

My financial history is a case in point. The bulk of my wealth is in the form of a 401K retirement account and my house and its property. Although the money contributed to my 401K and my ability to buy my house (via a mortgage loan) came and comes from compensation for my labor, the increase of value of these investments required practically no effort from me. Were I to seek to be more wealthy, a reliable way to do so would be to minimize my expenses and maximize my investments through increasing my contribution to my 401K, investing in similar managed investment accounts, and buying rental properties. At some point, in such a course, I would do well to stop laboring – in the sense of creating things of value – altogether, freeing my time for watching, reacting to , and making investments.

In short, to become wealthy in a capitalist society, one must allow ones money to make a greater portion of ones money than the money one makes through by working.

Originally Posted by questor

Why do the poor remain poor? Look at what they do and how they act and the decisions they make, doesn't that give you the answer?

Accepting the premise that wealth is created by money making money, the poor remain poor because they either lack enough income in excess of expense money to invest, fail to understand the idea investment, have money and understand but chose not to invest, or have money, understanding, and will, but invest poorly. The failure to have enough income in excess of expense may be due to lack of income for uncontrollable reasons, such as physical or mental disabilities, dislike of working, or having too many expenses, such as for child care, gambling, or alcohol and illicit drugs.

Again drawing on my own history, I’m disinclined from concluding that being poor or rich is entirely due to one’s decisions. While I’m not what many would term rich, I’m not poor, but many of my critical decisions have been very like people who are poor. During childhood, my I was motivated by a desire for the approval of my parents, family, and friends. Because my parents were essentially intellectuals, my efforts to gain their approval were largely intellectual. Because of the neighborhood where my parents chose to live, my friends were similar to me, and I was able to gain their approval by being smart, athletic, and, on occasion, brutal, larcenous, ecclesiastical, and sexually promiscuous. After childhood, I was motivated to pursue interests learned during my childhood, such as storytelling, art, science, math, technology, various sorts of adventures, and sex. One of these interests is computer programming. Because this activity gained me entry into a new, large, respectable, well-compensated profession, I’m now respectable and moderately wealthy.

Given different circumstances – different parents, different childhood neighbors, etc – I’m fairly certain I would have a very different life.

Regarding this thread’s topic, American society and government is, I think, to be praised for its lack of thwarting, and in many cases active support, my pursuit of my interests. This quality is not, I think, unique to the US, but common in nations with stable constitutional republics and similar forms of government. My good fortune in being born American, rather than, say, Bangladeshi, is yet another formative factor in my life that was due to no decision of mine.

[questor]

I see nothing in your treatise that contradicts the ideas I have proposed over many posts. It should be evident that the rich get richer because they have money working for them, but first you have to make decisions that allow you to obtain a surplus to invest. In your own case, you had nothing in the way, no drug habits, no lack of education, no repeated unwanted pregnancies (I assume), and you probably didn't waste your best years and energies in web sites. You educated yourself, bought property and invested, That's it! Time and the tendency for things to increase in value does the rest. Pretty simple, and yet there are many on this site that say this formula won't work. Here is what doesn't work: failing to get an education, taking drugs, having a negative attitude, being lazy, not taking responsibility for your own life.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by questor

I see nothing in your treatise that contradicts the ideas I have proposed over many posts. It should be evident that the rich get richer because they have money working for them, but first you have to make decisions that allow you to obtain a surplus to invest. In your own case, you had nothing in the way, no drug habits, no lack of education, no repeated unwanted pregnancies (I assume), and you probably didn't waste your best years and energies in web sites. You educated yourself, bought property and invested, That's it! Time and the tendency for things to increase in value does the rest. Pretty simple, and yet there are many on this site that say this formula won't work. Here is what doesn't work: failing to get an education, taking drugs, having a negative attitude, being lazy, not taking responsibility for your own life.

I have to admit what you say is true, failing to do the things you suggest will indeed result in poverty, sometimes things beyond your control can do so as well. some people simply live charmed lives others have real problems that result from the way they are raised. Your world view can indeed be a huge influence in how your life works out. Often you get this world view from your parents and from your community. I think the real question is how do you help people that are already in poverty, born into poverty see the way out? I know for a fact that being born into poverty doesn't mean you are doomed to stay there but so few seem to make it out I doubt it's as easy as you seem to make it sound. You parents, your community and your culture have more to do with your poverty level than anything else. You can be poor and still instill a sense of work ethic into your children but to do this you usually have to have the work ethic your self. If you don't have it or have had it destroyed by years of struggle that never works out then it is difficult to instill it into your children. I think that in some ways it's like child abuse, it's passed down from generation to generation. Poverty breeds poverty, the pattern must be broken, how do you do this?

[questor]

We are not all equal. Whoever said that or thinks that needs a shot of reality. There are things we can change and things we can't change. We can't change parents, skin color or incidence of birth. We can't change our IQ or genetic code. We can only work within the framework nature gave us. That ability and the freedom to use it dictates your success in your life. We have freedom to succeed or to fail in America. Yes, some people are lucky, some are standing in the right place when opportunity walks by, but the GREAT majority of successful people become that way following the same steps that have yielded success for centuries. This is a no-brainer. Read the book Millionaire Next Door. Some people never get what they want from life, but if they are honest, they will have to look at the choices they made and the way they lived their lives AND USED THEIR TIME. We all have the same number of hours in a day. Of course there are many special needs people who are compomised in some way, but the majority of people have earned the right to be exactly where they are.

[HydrogenBond]

America is sort of a paradox. It has the most diversity of any country, since it is a melting pot of all cultures. But at the same time, we are told we are all created equal. This hints at homogeneity or commonality within the diversity. Then we are also told one should be proud of their ethnic or unique diversity which reinforces how everyone is different. On the one hand, we are told get into the melting pot to make american soup and we are also told to keep the ingredients separate. Free enterprise creates diversity down to individual efforts, whereas socialist policy tries to make everyone the same.

What we have is like two poles of a magnet. Almost everyone is in the middle sort of pulled both ways at the same time. We want to all get along, but we also want to be treated as unique. There is a creative flux of constant tinkering. In America you can find almost anything in the middle somewhere in America, but you will not find too much steady state, everywhere.

[carlton-temple]

We in Europe know very little about "every-day" America and after having read the above posts, I rather think I shall stay put in my small, beautiful French mountain village after all !

[lemit]

So, anybody interested in talking about Frederick Jackson Turner's "The Frontier In American History?" What about the "Green World Myth," widely held to be the informing myth of all of the Americas?

Oh, we're not really discussing "America the Myth" here, are we?

When you think about all the environmental issues that can't be dealt with in a straightforward manner because they bump up against our deep-seated frontier psyches and their informing myths, we probably should discuss "America the Myth" somewhere. And when you think about our dealings with the rest of the world . . . well, you can guess where I'm going. We need to have that discussion.

Can we do that here, or is there a better place?

--lemit