You are called upon by the next President of the United States to head up a....

[damocles]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Action without thought is what got us into this mess.
The first thing that comes to mind to describe action without thought is destruction, the second is mistakes

Now, thought doesn't need to take months or years and I don't think that is what Infi was stating.

I think those were a great outline, and wish more politicians would take to heart.

I also agree with you that the situation is dire (not sure if I think it is as dire as you do, but I do think it is very dire).

http://www.eco-action.org/dt/oilfut.html

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusin...10002504.shtml

http://www.thebulletin.org/article.p...fn=mj05cavallo

There is one truism about technology. It takes about fifteen to fifty years to convert from one source of energy to another.

Right now we have too many people chasing too few barrels of oil.

You see what this means in the short term with the seasonal fluctuations of gasoline prices at the gasoline stations.

Production has flatlined as of April of 2004.

As Uncle Al would say, "That's all folks."

The fundamental bedrock problem for generating wealth is turning energy into work. If energy turned into work is scarce, so will be the wealth. That pie will be SMALL as we divide it.

If energy converted into wealth is large, is plentiful; then the portions we can divide out will be large.

I used this example before, elsewhere, as to what motivates people in desperate times;

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/hittites.htm

The Hittites and Egyptians clashed over Syria for one good reason. Both Empires had bursting populations and inadequate internal resources to support the same. Too many people chased not enough resources. Each empire was looking for additional range and resources for their peoples. Syria, with its trade routes and arable land, was it.

Does this sound familiar? It should.

The United States and China 2004.

Where?



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UGSFE1S111.DTL

It will get worse.

It just isn't a decaying America that we need to solve. It is a desperate oil-starved China, folks.

We are out of oil and out of time.

There is no room for contemplating our navels anymore. We've done it for fifty years. The cheap oil/petroleum-based energy is gone. Our TIME is UP.

As always, the best of wishes.

[Zythryn]

I agree with your premise, that oil is disappearing and demand is increasing.

However, if you go into the situation thinking, "OH MY GOD we have to do something right NOW", especially with the current US administration you will end up with a US invasion of Iran which will speed the destruction, not correct it.

Brazil eliminated oil from their auto infrastructure in 15 years? Given, the US has a much larger infrastructure, but if we can get our politicians out of the back pocket of oil companies I have no doubt we can go that way as well.

Heck, farmers in Iowa have already banded together to build their own ethonal plant and they sell it as fast as they can produce it.

[damocles]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

I agree with your premise, that oil is disappearing and demand is increasing.

However, if you go into the situation thinking, "OH MY GOD we have to do something right NOW", especially with the current US administration you will end up with a US invasion of Iran which will speed the destruction, not correct it.

Brazil eliminated oil from their auto infrastructure in 15 years? Given, the US has a much larger infrastructure, but if we can get our politicians out of the back pocket of oil companies I have no doubt we can go that way as well.

Heck, farmers in Iowa have already banded together to build their own ethonal plant and they sell it as fast as they can produce it.

Brazil?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4715332.stm

1. Look at the comparative labor costs.

2. Look at the size of the auto fleets.

http://www.ie.ufrj.br/publicacoes/di..._in_brazil.pdf

http://www.taemag.com/issues/article...cle_detail.asp

Brazil's fleet at ten million vehicles is one tenth the size Of CHINA'S.

http://www.taemag.com/issues/article...cle_detail.asp

offers your argument for flex fuel cars but unfortunately Robert Zubrin works optimistic numbers based on corn and soy for an American fleet of some 200 MILLION vehicles. He doesn't know what a huge dent that puts into our shrinking agriculture base(That is FOOD for US.).

He also forgets to cite the numbers for agro-conversion. 17% at the wheel to road. I'll take hydrogen's 25% via nuclear-powered electrolysis, thank you.

Besides methanol or ethanol both emit pollutants at the tail pipe. Hydrogen fuel cell cars emit water vapor. I'll take that solution again, thank you.

This is why I propose hydrogen as a car fuel, despite its dangerous handling characteristics.(Imagine Betty Rubble fueling up her Rubblemobile from a hydrogen dispenser[KABOOM]. Better make those hydrogen fuelups via explosion resistant bottle changeout by a trained service technician at a gas station a la the Barbecue grill propane tank!)

Hydrogen is just an ocean away and a reactor away.

As always, the best of wishes;

[Zythryn]

I prefer Hydrogen myself.
However, ethanol is available NOW and requires very little change to existing infrastruction.

Much of our current ag production is sitting not being utilized (subsidies). In addition, corn and soy ethanol is not the best source, pure cellulous is the direction we are going which gives a much better energy ration.

Vehicles running on pure ethanol also have much lower emisions (not as low as Hydrogen, but still very low).

If you want action NOW, ethonal is the way to go.

If you want an answer for 10-20 years, stick with hydrogen.

The best answer, imho, is to switch to pure ethanol now, while working on and implementing hydrogen.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by damocles

. Hydrogen fuel cell cars emit water vapor.

This is why I propose hydrogen as a car fuel,

Hydrogen is just an ocean away and a reactor away.

We sell you reillleey ChEEEP natural gas.
Have lots! Throw in girl, army & PM too VEERRY CHEEEP!
Seriously we are already the 53 state - you own most of it anyhow.

Lots of cars are converting to gas here despite the fact that the short-sighted govt. gives no tax break

Toyota it marketing a hybrid hydrogen car here now. Looks great.
They are not selling the same in US of A?
Search Tasmanian Uni site for an Article on Hydrogen entitled "A Spoonful of Diesel makes the Hydrogen go Down". -Alumni mag-(Aussie humour grows on you eventually) They are doing some ground braking research on hydrogen motors

[damocles]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Toyota it marketing a hybrid hydrogen car here now. Looks great.
They are not selling the same in US of A?
Search Tasmanian Uni site for an Article on Hydrogen entitled "A Spoonful of Diesel makes the Hydrogen go Down". -Alumni mag-(Aussie humour grows on you eventually) They are doing some ground braking research on hydrogen motors

http://www.alumni.utas.edu.au/Alumni%20News29.pdf

The Hybrid that Toyota is selling in the US(Prius) is a mixed gasoline engine/electric motor car that actually costs more in energy to manufacture than it will ever save in petroleum products. It is a negative energy investment as far as petroleum is concerned. Go figure.

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsst...2005/story.htm

As for the Tasmanian Uni article?

For the benefit of all who are curious.(Article begins page 27.)

(Thanks for directing me to it to it, M., It is important to me, as it gives us a flex fuel car alternative to the bio-fuel nonsense that can tide us over to the HFC cars. D.)

Now about Aussie humor......

What is no joke to me is that I am acutely aware that Australia is a world leader in hydrodynamics, acoustics, and magnetic remote sensing. The country's scientist and engineers never get the credit they truly deserve.

That little joke about the US owning Australia is, sad to say, almost as true as the one about China owning the US, because they've bought up all our debt.(Another one of those problems for which a solution must be found.)

----------------------------

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Much of our current ag production is sitting not being utilized (subsidies). In addition, corn and soy ethanol is not the best source, pure cellulous is the direction we are going which gives a much better energy ration.

Vehicles running on pure ethanol also have much lower emisions (not as low as Hydrogen, but still very low).

If you want action NOW, ethonal is the way to go.

If you want an answer for 10-20 years, stick with hydrogen.

To go to an ethanol or mixed-fuel fleet you have a fifteen year fleet conversion cycle as people either converted their cars expensively or traded in their gasoline guzzlers for the mixed fuel or flex-fuel ICE or diesel cars.

They would have to do it again when they go to HFC cars. Why do I want to do TWO infrastructure conversion steps? Why not skip step one and use the suggestion that Michaelangelica supplied which would allow us to retrofit the existing fleet(rather cheaply) and start the second step fuel supply and dispensing infrastructure conversion NOW?

As always, the very best of wishes.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by damocles

http://www.alumni.utas.edu.au/Alumni%20News29.pdf

The Hybrid that Toyota is selling in the US(Prius) is a mixed gasoline engine/electric motor car that actually costs more in energy to manufacture than it will ever save in petroleum products. It is a negative energy investment as far as petroleum is concerned. Go figure.

Sorry I must have mis-heard. I only half listen to adds an am one of that rare Tribe of Males who are not interested in cars

Originally Posted by damocles

As for the Tamanian Uni article?
For the benefit of all who are curious.(Article begins page 27
(Thanks for directing me to it to it, M., It is important to me,

Sorry I was lazy in not directing you to it acuratly, after all, my daughter wrote it. I didn't realise you would be so interested. If you want I can ask her to keep an eye on developments for you.

Originally Posted by damocles

Now about Aussie humor......

What is no joke to me is that I am acutely aware that Australia is a world leader in hydrodynamics, acoustics, and magnetic remote sensing. The country's scientist and engineers never get the credit they truly deserve.

That little joke about the US owning Australia is, sad to say, almost as true as the one about China owning the US, because they've bought up all our debt.(Another one of those problems for which a solution must be found.)

As always, the very best of wishes.

See what I mean; it wasn't a joke about the 53rd state !

It seems we are a Nation of mad inventors. Every other male has a"Shed" where he tinkers away inventing all sorts of amazing things. Unfortunately there are no Venture Capital Markets here so ideas languish or get sold to you.
Science, Higher Education and Health are being short-changed dreadfully by the present government. (While at the same time they have squirreled away 30 Billion! for PS & their pension fund!!) A billion is a big number here.

We all pray for China's heath. You can't buy anything here unless it is made in China. Great stuff, very cheap. Fortunately they are buying most of their minerals and uranium from us.

In this imaginary scenario (we are supposed to be talking about "The President invites etc) I wonder what will happen when China invades Taiwan, like they did Tibet?
Perhaps they might wait and just buy it back. One can only hope.
How long can the USA go running up her debts to China?
(I live in a glass house).

By the way, our boring, old fart of a PM is there at the moment (You won't have noticed). We have had him for 11 years and we all a bit tired of him.
Would you keep him please?
Pretty please?
Best wishes,
--
Michael

[Michaelangelica]

What is it with Yanks?
Every sci. fi. 'future' movie shows a dark, grim future full of death and destruction or war.
Hollywood churns out "disaster " movies.
You love seeing cars destroyed and things blown up.
Is their no optimism for the future?
Do you like scaring youselves?

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

What is it with Yanks?
Every sci. fi. 'future' movie shows a dark, grim future full of death and destruction or war.
Hollywood churns out "disaster " movies.
You love seeing cars destroyed and things blown up.
Is their no optimism for the future?
Do you like scaring youselves?

People would rather look at a train wreck.
Than a mother hugging her child.

Hollywood knows how to sell.

Death is inevitable. Get Desensitized to it already!!

[Freddy]

First, I would require all cities with public transportation, (bus, train, subway) to increase ridership. All vehicles entering the city would be required to carpool with a three passengers minimum.

Gas would be rationed period with everyone getting say 10 gallons per week. Not enough then get a better mileage car and/or cut your driving.

This would cut pollution as well as oil and gasoline useage in America. Many people would be inconvienced but too bad.

Hydrogen fuel cell technology, ethanol, electric and hybrid cars would be given incentives for purchases.

A start but it would help.

We would withdraw from Iraq by the end of 2006.