lets hear humanitarians now

[Mercedes Benzene]

That's true. But I guess the real point is: regardless of the government, the inhumane treatment of POWs and anyone in general is just not acceptable!

[Lancaster]

Hmmm....

The rights of people are relative to culture. We don't approve because such an act would never be tolerated in America. They don't care because their culture says that that is what they must to to reach heaven.

It's all relative to your upbringing and lifestyle...

Maybe we're just above that, and they're still getting there. Thanks for that, I just had a revelation.

[InfiniteNow]

Please let this be read as a strong request for all posters in this thread to stop throwing around generalizations and support their views. This is a science forum. Thank you.

[pgrmdave]

I trust the government to a very, very small degree. Throughout history the American government has upheld the ideals of freedom during peacetime, but as soon as war comes, they limit free speech against the government (Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798), suspend habeas corpus (Civil War), hold ethnic groups in internment camps (Japanese in WWII), or arrest people without charging them and hold them for indeterminate lengths of time (current). The best example against the NSA tapping is the WWII camps, in which the US Census was used to round up Japanese and hold them in camps until the end of the war. That was an illegal use of the census, but it was done for the good of the nation. I can see this tapping ending up like that, or worse, not ending when it should because those who cry out for more liberty are believed to have something to hide.

alien and sedition acts: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...p?document=477
suspention of habeas corpus: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...p?document=425
Japanese internment: http://www.42explore2.com/japanese.htm , http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/intern01.htm

[pgrmdave]

And remember, those are only the ones that I know best, and they are easy to find sources on. I'm sure there were many other injustices that were done which are harder to find sources on. And those are only against US citizens, I didn't bother with the atrocities fostered on the Native Americans.

[Lancaster]

We can point to the atrocities of the past, which were bad, but those things would never be tolerated today. When you look at the frequency and reasons behind many lawsuits today, they are useless and possess no real offense. If anything like the japanese prison camps happened again, think of the lawsuits that would erupt. The media would be outraged. In the 1940's men committed suicide because they couldn't join the army. Patriotism was something that was incredibly important and common then. People were less eager to question and insult the government. Many bad things were done in the name of peace.

[pgrmdave]

I disagree Lancaster, I think that these things are already happening. In the months after 9/11, Middle Eastern men were arrested without being charged with a crime, they were held without being allowed to see lawyers, and those who went to trial were tried by military tribunals, not by their peers. Their Constitutional rights were violated because we were scared. Since then that has stopped, mostly because we aren't as scared anymore. However, the NSA is currently tapping our private phone conversations without a warrent, in direct violation of the fourth ammendment rights:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I wonder whether or not I could sue the government for illegal search and seizure - I don't even know if I've been tapped! People will rarely believe that they would tolerate an atrocity, but that has never stopped them from occuring. I am sure that if you described the Holocaust to Germans in 1920 they would have said that it could never happen there.

[sanctus]

Racoon to answer your question quite simply it is because those acts were made by some people and not by a state, a governmant claiming to be civilized (in the occidental view of it). Those two soldats never were prisoners of war, they were/are victims (or hostages) and all those associations criticise any war because it makes victims independently on which side they are. But they fight for the right of prisoners and not for that of victims. I guess this answers a bit your question about the silence.

A part from that I don't know who said it but to me the US are the less free country of all the occidental world! There is an extreme state control, you get even in prison for pissing on the boarder of a street (not even in a city, it happened to a friend of mine), you have not a complete free speech for example saying something ambigous about terrorism you risk to get your phone, mail listened (thanks to the patriot act if I understood that correctly). To be free means that you are free even if you have something to hide! Now don't get me wrong to some extent I agree on the phone listening and so on, but it should be permitted only if there are real proofs not just indices. And so on, I guess an american citizen could say much more than me about this subject.

[Lancaster]

You should take a trip to Singapore. Just chewing gum warrents a good thrashing with a wooden cane.

The mere fact that we even know about the imprisionment of suspected terrorists shows how free the country is. If they really wanted, the intellegence agencies of the United States could cover a LOT more things up.

But it was bad of them to do that.