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Old 07-10-2006   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

An interesting thread, and one that I have some experience with.

Suffice it to say, that where I went for high-school nearly everybody qualified for "reverse discrimination."

But did everybody get it? Ohhhh nooo...

Instead what happens is this - there is a trait, which has absolutely nothing to do with your abilities - but does tend to be an indicator that you may have been getting the shaft for the last hundred and fifty years or so.

Let's just put it in concrete terms - the rich (mostly white) kids can (mostly) afford to go to college even with average grades and middling test scores. The poor (mostly black) kids (mostly) can't.

Now, there aren't any scholarship strictly for white people (and there shouldn't be) but there are a few strictly for black kids - and they are generally awarded to the best and the brightest of the subset.

This actually has the opposite of the intended effect - the best and the brightest of the "minority" community get all of the good scholarships and opportunities - while the "average" of the disadvantaged get left out in the cold. By contrast, the "average" of the already pre-advantaged students get to keep their advantages.

Do we see how this in fact increases the perceived differences between different classes of people with ZERO real differences?

Let's say we had 100 people, 75 have red hair, 25 have brown. You give everybody with red hair a dollar. Then you give the top 20% another dollar (assume they're evenly distributed.) Okay - you've now got 15 red haired people with 2 dollars, 60 with one dollar. 5 brown haired people with one dollar, and 15 with nothing. Now you say, well, that doesn't seem fair - let's give the top twenty percent of the browns another dollar to even things out - so that's five extra dollars - only it's the same five people so you now have 5 brown hairs with two dollars - and fifteen who've still got nothing.

Now, of course, the world doesn't really work like this - because not all red haired people are going to start out with a dollar, and not all brown haired people are going to start out with nothing - but in general - it shows how "affirmative action" hurts the community it's intended to benefit. (Add to it the fact that having the dollar in the first places means you're more likely to get another, and you see how quickly this gets out of control.)

It has nothing to do with "being a handout" or "not being responsible." In general, those kind of excuses have the subtext of "but I should get that!"

By way of example, the valedictorian in my class accounted for fully 50% of the merit aid awarded to a class of nearly 500 people.

The playing field is already not level, and dumping money on the part that's already nearer the summit only serves to build a big cliff of cash thats even harder to clamor over from the bottom.

That said - you can't just do nothing, can you?

TFS


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Old 07-20-2006   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

What a great thread. I've given this a lot of thought and I have some original theories. Will post more soon.

As a taster, what is the difference between a man who puts money into an organisation to beat up a minority and someone else who puts money into an organisation to protect that minority? They are both, on superficial examination, racist which leads to the absurd conclusion that anti-racism is racism.
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Old 07-20-2006   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

I wanted to put my theory today, but I've been distracted by other threads. I will try tomorrow.

Needless to say, this thread is fundamentally different from all 'political correctness' threads and the resolution of this apparant moral paradox is highly relevent for understanding almost all areas of political science and goes straight to the heart of our society and everything we stand for.

Oh, and TheFaithfulStone....

Damned good point. Quality point from me. I hope somebody will continue discussing the implications of this.

Last edited by sebbysteiny; 07-20-2006 at 07:16 PM..
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Old 07-20-2006   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

Quote:
Now, there aren't any scholarship strictly for white people (and there shouldn't be)
Speaking as a white college student, I've been curious about this point for a while. I've heard people say that white-only scholarships are fundamentally wrong, but I've never heard a convincing argument supporting this view; it's introduced as a fundamental truth. I'd appreciate if someone could enlighten me. Just please don't say "racism" and leave it at that. In my opinion, it's racism to have race-based scholarships at all. Keep in mind that there would be serious repercussions if a non-race-based scholarship made race a mandatory question. In every scholarship I've ever seen, including the private ones, race has always been an optional question. And it's not like choosing not to answer marks you as minority. I never answered the question out of fear that, if faced with a choice between me and a minority, whover chose would pick the minority to boost their percentages and show the world they weren't racist.
Wow, that paragraph ran a lot longer than I intended.
Point is, a lot of good topics in your post, FaithfulStone. I'm just looking for a reason why white-only scholarships are inherently bad.

Last edited by munch; 07-24-2006 at 11:45 AM..
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Old 07-21-2006   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

I get it! You make a new line every few sentences to make your post more readable!

I actually did get a scholarship (which I ended up turning down) that, though it didn't state it explicitly, was white-only. That was the Ivgvar Olafson (made-up name) memorial scholarship, which was only available to people of Finnish descent who went to the University of Minnesota.

While I was applying to colleges, I got the feeling that white males were really the most discriminated-against group in terms of both scholarships and admissions.

I remember searching countless websites for scholarships I could apply for, and not qualifying for most of them. Out of 10 scholarships, I'd estimate 4 were for women only, 4 were for minorities, and 1 was for both. The amount of financial aid for the perceived victims of discrimination was stunning. I invite anyone to try to find an academic or need-based scholarship and see if this is still true 3 years later.

I had good reason for not identifying race on college applications, as I mentioned earlier. Public schools are all held to quotas stating that they had to enroll X amount of minorities. Identifying myself as white only put me at a disadvantage. Most private universities have similar policies, in order to keep funding from whatever sources wouldn't support a racist university.

The only places being white might help were the Old Boys' Clubs at Ivy League colleges. I say "might" because the only way it could help is if you were either "old money" or rich enough to become a potential donor to the college. As a middle-class Midwesterner from a 4th or so generation immigrant family, I wasn't rich enough or respectable enough to qualify for the Old Boys' benefits.

(I'm not trying to disrespect Ivy league schools. There's a reason they made up my top two out of five choices. It's not athletics. )

Ideally, available scholarships would be given out without consideration of race, and be based on merit and need. To continue with TheFaithfulStone's model, that would mean the people with no money at the start would be given a dollar, evening the field partially if not completely. Money would then be doled out based on academic prowess.

I probably get negative points for being the first to mention Martin Luther King, but he put it so well: "One day my children will be judged not by the color of their skin..." you know the rest. His dream didn't include his kids getting preferential treatment based on race, only that they be treated as equals.

There's so much more I want to say, but it's way past my bedtime and I'd just end up rambling at this point.

<== current state of my brain
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Old 07-21-2006   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

Racism and Positive discrimination

Introduction

I first considered this point (once again) from a discussion I had over the Israeli – Palestinian conflict. My opponent (for want of a better word) accused Israel of being a racist state. However having been to Haifa and other cities, it was obvious Jews and Arabs get equal treatment. Also, there is not one law that is based on race in the whole state of Israel: except one. Israel’s immigration policy gives people with one Jewish grandparent an immediate passport, but for those without a Jewish grandparent, one has a similar asylem and immigration policy to other Western countries.

The point put to me was that Israel is therefore a racist state because it has a law that discriminates in favour of one race to the detriment of all the other races. However that law is the founding principal of Zionism and its entire purpose is to protect the Jewish community from global anti-Semitism. It was infact chosen by Hitler since that was the very criteria necessary to guarantee a place in the gas chambers of Auschvitz. It seemed to me that the law’s sole purpose was to fight racism and not be it.

The moral stakes couldn’t be higher. On the one hand, you have a policy which might be racist, which is the most disgusting ideology humanity has created which leads to immense suffering possibly even genocide, and on the other hand you have a policy which might be the exact polar opposite of racism as it tries to stop such suffering wherever it may be found.

I thought it would take only about five minutes to resolve this dilemma. Boy was I wrong.

So to simplify this problem, I decided to retreat behind a more clear cut example by trying to distinguish between an obviously bad racist action of funding an orginisation whose aim is to beat up black people on the streets, and an obviously good anti-racism action of funding an orginisation trying to stop such black people from being beaten up in the streets.

To my horror, even in this extreme situation, the problem did not go away. Those funding the anti racism orginisation were engaged in an activity that discriminated in favour of blacks to the detriment of all other races, and were therefore apparently being racist too.

What the hell was going on here? Is the difference between good and evil, racism and anti-racism, a fiction? Does the entire moral compass of Western Society fall apart? After all, it is our disgust of racism and our desire to stop it wherever it may be that separates us from the Nazis. Is David Cameroon a mini Hitler for trying to get more women and minorities into his party? Is Tony Blair? Is Martin Luther King nothing more than a racist bigot?

The Problem

Eventually I realised that to be anti-racist one has to try and stop one particular race from being victimised. It does not matter how you do it, you must spend a disproportionate amount of resources (time or money) on one race over another. This is discrimination in the same way that spending the education budged exclusively to white schools is discrimination as was done in Apartheid South Africa. So does that mean our entire moral compass collapses?

Eventually I hit on the idea of positive discrimination. Could it be that positive discrimination would cover all anti-racism and morally correct efforts whist racism (or negative discrimination) would cover all the racist and morally wrong actions?

If so, it would explain why both actions appear to be very similar, since they are both discrimination. But if this concept is to be anything other than an intellectual fudge, there must be some principal that distinguishes one from the other.

My solution

In this solution, I will use some of the following as illustrative examples.
a) i) an orginisation set up to beat up black people on the streets.
ii)an orginisation to protect black people from being beaten up.
b) i) an orginisation set up to give Jewish people better access to contacts of the successful members of that community.
ii) a synagogue.
c) i) disproportionate spending on education in majority Christian areas.
ii) disproportionate spending on education in minority Muslim areas.
iii) disproportionate spending on or against education in minority Jewish areas.
d) i) giving money to a Muslim charity.
ii) giving money to a charity in America designed to improve education in a Christian school.
e) i) an academic boycott of Jewish students in Nazi Germany.
ii) an academic boycott of white South African Universities in Apartheid South Africa
iii) an academic boycott of Israel, American or British Universities in consequence of their government’s foreign policy.

If I am right, then (excluding b and d) the i's should be racism and the ii’s should be positive discrimination. bi and ciii should provide interesting insight in its own right, and quite clearly b ii should not be described as racism.

There are two types of racism: firstly, where one race is specifically targeted for unequal treatment (which I will call ‘direct racism’); and secondly where one race is specifically targeted for favourable treatment (which I will call ‘indirect racism’).

So my first criteria for an action to be ‘racist’ is that the policy must have a ‘victimised race’. To be a victimised race, that race must be subjected to a real and practical disadvantage to other races as a direct consequence of the policy. ‘Real and practical’ means, when considered with all other factors, that race has a disadvantage competing with other races. Simply having less of an advantage than it would otherwise have is not enough; it must put that race into a second class position. This covers direct racism.

So ai is a racist organisation because it means that black people will be more likely to be beaten up putting the black community at a real and practical disadvantage. However, aii is not racist because there is no victimised race. The whites aren’t disadvantaged in any way whatsoever.

However this is not enough to help with c. ci is a racist act, but it gives one race favourable treatment rather than victimising another. It is therefore indirect racism.

So it seems my first criteria can successfully distinguish direct racism from positive discrimination and indirect racism. Now one must find a second criteria to distinguish between positive discrimination and indirect racism. Allas this is even harder.

My first attempt for finding the second criteria is this: Is there a race that is put at an unfair advantage? By ‘advantage’, again, I mean a ‘real and practical’ advantage: simply having less of a disadvantage when all other factors are considered is not enough.

If we apply this to ci, we see that the spending gives the majority Christian real and practical advantage so it is indirect racism (it’s working!!). But in cii, since Muslim minorities in all countries in the Western World are disproportionately unsuccessful, at first glance it appears the Muslim Community would not have a real and practical advantage so it is not racism.

Further examples and unsolved problems

Up until now, this has worked. But problems start to arise with ciii . The Jewish community is disproportionately successful in all communities in which it settles). This is because the desire to work hard and learn and never give up are immensely strong in Jewish culture. Whist it would be good if all cultures have this work ethic, they don’t. Clearly the Jewish community (at the moment) would be given a real and practical advantage if disproportionate money was invested in their education. But what happens if the government compensates for this by underfunding Jewish community education (direct discrimination)? Alternatively, one could argue that equal funding gives the Jewish community a real and practical advantage and it is therefore indirect racism. But surely anything but equal treatment is clearly racism? Dealing with the indirect discrimination point, one can say the advantage of the Jewish community is not unfair since there is nothing stopping other cultures from having a similar work ethic. The solution is thus not to bring the Jewish community down but to bring other cultures up so it is not indirectly racist. However I am totally stumped regarding the direct discrimination problem.

There are other unresolved issues to. di and dii could be considered racist, or positive discrimination. But at the same time, could it not be said that people have a right to support their own community?

I suspect the answer to this lies by suitably defining the word ‘unfair’. Perhaps there could be a closed list of advantages which would be considered to be ‘fair’. The word ‘unfair’ could also be inserted into the first criteria for direct discrimination. But I admit, beyond this, there is still fog. However what I have presented can distinguish between right and wrong in 95% of cases.

bi and bii I will analyse in a later post, but essentially they give the Jewish community an advantage of social networking over the other communities. Of course this could apply to the Muslim community and the Christian community as well. But one only needs to step onto a University Campus to see that such organisations are widespread. Are they racist? If they are, then are places of worship racist? And if not, what separates such an organisation from obtaining a beach?

I will give these issues all more thought and hope to put up another post soon.

More Criteria

A third criteria that must be considered is whether the target race of the policy has a real and practical need which needs protecting. If so, then it is must be positive discrimination. This may not be necessary if the first two criteria (when finalised to iron out the above problems) becomes sufficient to make the distinction without need for this third criteria, but it could nevertheless be useful to make sure we have the correct solution.

Lastly, I want to talk about the phantom factor of intent. One could try and say (as one does in the criminal law) that the difference between a legitimate and an illegitimate act is intent. However, even Adolf Hitler was only intending to make the world a better place. He might have said something like the German people were so oppressed by the Jewish conspirators that there was a genuine need for the final solution. One can only conclude that intent is irrelevant. An action is either racist or not racist and it makes no difference what the perpetrator was trying to achieve. This means that if an academic boycott is a racist measure, it does not matter that the people trying to propose this are only trying to do what they believe to be good. Afterall, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Does that mean that anybody proposing a racism measure IS a racist?

Hopefully, I will finish what I began and post a complete solution soon.
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Old 07-21-2006   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

Stebby, Christian Muslim and Jewish are not (always) races.

You can choose to be any one of those things - but you don't (with rare exceptions) get to choose your race.

Religious discrimination is a bad thing, to be sure, but it's not "racism."

One more thing - your post is EXTREMELY theoretical - and most of the examples you give are not really germane to the current discussion.

How do your classifiers work when applied to the specific situations the rest of the thread was largely about.
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Old 07-21-2006   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

No offense munch, but I immediately get suspicious when white people start talking about being "discriminated against."

Let's see - blacks have not been second class citizen (at least in theory) since... 1964?

The difference between "whites only" scholarships and "blacks only" scholarships is a matter of statistics, and your argument against it is a matter of edge cases.

Statistically speaking, African-Americans need more "help" in getting to college than white people.

There are two coherent arguments against Affirmative Action. One is that all discrimination is unjust. This has some merit - but it doesn't really address the main issue, which is that the starting condition of the system is unfair. How does one compensate for unfair starting condition if NOT through Affirmative Action? You make this claim tangentially.

The second argument is that Affirmative Action amounts to harm to someone else. In the great majority of cases, this isn't true. It depends on the assumption that funds available to blacks only would still be available if they were open to all. That's not really supported - since many "black-only" scholarships and aid programs are established with the specific goal of helping black students. The second part of this claim depends on an incomplete understanding of racial preferences in admissions. If you don't get into a university, and some-one else, who you perceive to be less qualified DOES, chances are it had little to do with race. Perhaps person B is a talented Baseball player, but his grades are only average. Perhaps he is a talented Artist, or Musician, or his admission essay was REALLY good. The chances of a dead tie with race being the only tie breaker are actually pretty slim. And even if that DOES occur, the harm done to the "white" student may be insignificant in relationship to the benefit done the "black" student.

In other words, I'm not particularly moved by your "justice" arguments, as it's arguing for justice in an unfair system. We give one party a lawyer, the other a doctor, and then put them in a court. The lawyer wins. Am I making the distinction clear? I'm not sure I am.

As for your "harm" argument, I have yet to see any harm demonstrated by Affirmative Action - although I have seen a decided lack of any movement in the desired direction.

edit: Good analogy. Affirmative action is like a broken down car - it's not really hurting anyone, because it's just sitting there on the side of the road. On the other hand, it's not getting you to where you want to be either.

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Last edited by TheFaithfulStone; 07-21-2006 at 09:26 AM..
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Old 07-21-2006   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFaithfulStone
How do your classifiers work when applied to the specific situations the rest of the thread was largely about.
Essentially, if my innitial suspicions are correct, anybody accusing a positive discriminatory measures as being a racist measure will need to doublecheck their moral compass because it is way off. Is it effective? It doesn't matter, morally it is still as good as somebody trying and failing to improve our health service.

Perhaps you could be kind enough as to tell me what you think is the difference between racism and anti-racism / positive discrimination?

For example,
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFaithfulStone
No offense munch, but I immediately get suspicious when white people start talking about being "discriminated against."
You have no reasonable basis for those suspicions. You must address the concerns of the white community who feel themselves at a disadvantage or you will be yourself racist.

Last edited by sebbysteiny; 07-21-2006 at 09:57 AM..
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Old 07-21-2006   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Positive Discrimination

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebbysteiny
Essentially, if my innitial suspicions are correct, anybody accusing a positive discriminatory measures as being a racist measure will need to doublecheck their moral compass because it is way off.
Does a moral compass work using the geomagnetic north, or true north? Which way is north? What does that mean?
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