What is independence?

[hallenrm]

Today, the 15th August. is the Independence day of India. Some 59 years ago, when I was yet to be born, India got its independence from the British rule. So I never had first hand experience of what it feels to be a subject of a subjugated nation.

Does anybody here has had that experience?

But ffrom what I have been taught at school, I gather it must have been terrible. Imagine being subjugated to people you can hardly identify yourself with.

But today my thoughts are wandering off in a different direction.

Do people ever gain independence?

For most of the population it is just a different set of masters who determine what one can do, what one cannot. If you are born in the "right" family you have all the freedom to do almost anything that pleases you, but if you are not, you face restrictions at every step. The people, who govern you, although may have the same color of skin, are so alien; their language too.

Isn't it useful to think about independence once in a while, say on the independence day of the nation one is born in. Who knows tomorrow you may be a party to a society ready to take away someone else's independence.

[InfiniteNow]

It's really a tough question hallenrm. Even within our own societies there are most often barriers preventing us from total independence, which is certainly a sword which cuts in both directions (a two-sided blade).

I have grown up in the US, not subject to the rule of parties in other lands. But I was subject to the rule of my parents, my teachers, and now my bosses at work... I stuggle to think of a lack of hierarchy on any level.

I would mention also that living in pure wilderness, such as a self-sufficient Grizzly Adams type, would at first glance appear to be independence, yet we would still count on the land, the water, and the animals around us to survive so would still not be totally independent.

My point being this. The powers that be are ever changing and dynamic. The regional boundaries held in such high regard are often redrawn or eliminated entirely. Time is a wave which washes away our sand castles, and erases the lines we've drawn with our sticks.

We will never be fully independent in the manner about which I speak above, but I suggest that we should continue to use our celebrations to assist all future generations in remembering the important evolutions and growth which has come before us.


Cheers.

[HydrogenBond]

Independence is sort of a utopian dream. Through every change one sees the idealized image. But each change brings its own limitations to the vision. I think the vision is of an ideal childhood, growing and evolving in an environment that is one big happy family. India's Independance limited the family to relatives with similar culture and traditions. But since most families are not ideal, but real, the reality was only semi-independence because of disfunctional family members. This keeps us dreaming of the upotian time of a fully functional family of man.

[Shekhar]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

We will never be fully independent in the manner about which I speak above, but I suggest that we should continue to use our celebrations to assist all future generations in remembering the important evolutions and growth which has come before us.

Highly appreciating lines.Well, I also agree that we can't be fully independant but are rather interdependant.Also its a game of probability that in which family we are born,what type of socieity and events we are going to face and will have any impact on our mind or prove to be a turning point !

[Ananke]

Firstly, I would say that independence is a human concept, since the universe is entagled on many levels all the way down. Thus, I shall address myself purely to the social and human aspect of independence.

There are degress of independence. Most people immerse themselves in the affairs of others, and invite those same to interfere in their own affairs. True freedom, and thus independence, resides in achieving autonomy of thought and action. Only those who are capable of acting and thinking without regard to the will of others are capable of such a state. For the base masses, such independence is impossible.

[sebbysteiny]

I don't see what the problem is. You are independant when you have the ability to choose your own leaders collectively as a people.

Infact, I could go wider. You are independant when the affairs of your state are dealt with by citizens of that state without interference from a government from a totally different state.

Problem solved surely?

[Ananke]

Youre quite correct. You dont see the problem.

[hallenrm]

You are independant when the affairs of your state are dealt with by citizens of that state without interference from a government from a totally different state

.

I do not agree! You are independent when the people that rule your country have concerns similar to those of the ruled, regardless of the fact that they belong to your country or someother country. Let me, give an example to illustrate, India is a big country and people from different states are often as alien to the residents of other constituent states as the people from a foriegn nation may be, so the rulers, by that I mean the ministers in the government, if they are from a dominant state often forget about the welfare of the constituents of the nation. They are thus no different from the rulers from an alien state.

[sebbysteiny]

Originally Posted by Hallenrm

You are independent when the people that rule your country have concerns similar to those of the ruled, regardless of the fact that they belong to your country or someother country.

What you are talking about is a good thing, but I don't think it is independance. You are talking about a good government. It is not even necessarily democracy.

From what I've seen, concepts of independance, democracy, human rights and freedom, free market economics and good governence seem to be seriously confused by many people. Each of them is a separate concept. It is true that one often leeds to the others and if a country has 4 of the 5, the chances are it has the other one as well. But that isn't necesarily so.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Independence is self-government of a nation, country, or state by its residents and population, generally exercising sovereignty.

The term independence is used in contrast to subjugation, which refers to a region as a "territory" —subject to the political and military control of an external government. The word is sometimes used in a weaker sense to contrast with hegemony, the indirect control of one nation by another, more powerful nation.

Independence can be the initial status of an emerging nation (often filling a political void), but is often an emancipation from some dominating power. It can be argued that independence is a negative definition: the state of not being controlled by another power through colonialism, expansionism or imperialism. Independence may be obtained by decolonization, or by separation or dismemberment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence

[kmarinas86]

Independence-Freedom from control or influence of another or others (a disposition of not being modified or puppeteered by the outside - often defies stat quo, rarely matches it)
Interdependence-Reliance on people in other places for information, resources, goods, and services (a disposition to exchange to maintain stat quo up to, but not beyond)
Codependence-Condition in which someone exhibits too much, and often inappropriate, caring for other people's struggles. ("sticky" interdependence)
Dependence-lack of independence or self-sufficiency (a disposition to depend on others (even independent ones) to maintain stat quo)