Corporal Punishment?

[Rebiu]

Hell I even spank my wife.

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by Rebiu

Hell I even spank my wife.

Like they say, the only thing worse than a male chauvinist is a damn woman who don't know her place...

[infamous]

I remember spanking my daughter only three times in the years we spent together as a family. She was very well behaved and needed very little correction. Nevertheless, it is, on occasion, necessary to correct a child when they misbehave. She is grown now and I'm quite proud of the splendid citizen she has become. The justification I feel now for these actions was expressed eloquently by my daughter herself. On or about her 30th birthday she and her son were visiting me for Thanksgiving dinner. As is custom, everyone at the table was to give thanks for the blessings they had received in their lives. When my daughters turn came, she had this to say:

"I'm thankful for a father that loved me enough to correct me. And even though I know it was difficult for him to spank me, he made the effort with the expectation in mind that I would be the better for it. For this I am thankful Dad."

It's easy to make excuses why spanking is not necessary, and in some cases, it may not be. However, when the parent is forced into making a difficult point, it may be the only effective measure. And if done in love, as my daughter has proven, it will eventually be appreciated...........Infy

[TheBigDog]

Spanking is just one tool in the toolbox parents have for raising kids. Like a metric crescent wrench, it has specifc applications where it is most appropriate. And like any powerful tool you must use it carefully so that it doesn't do unwanted harm.

I was spanked as a kid, I have spanked my kids. The one rule that I try and follow most stricktly is the one Ron mentioned, and that is don't spank angry. Spanking is not an outlet for pent up rage or aggression. It is a method of enforcing consequences for crossing predetermined boudaries. My kids have never been spanked for doing something that they didn't suspect would get them a spanking if they got caught. I say suspect, because it is impossible to communicate every nuance of behavior that will result in a spanking. You draw some simple lines, and when those lines get crossed the kid gets whacks.

The number and intesnity of those whacks varies with the reason for the spanking. And as a parent you need to gage who it is that you are spanking. A tiny little person does not need adult strength unloaded on them to get the message. I personally never use any kind of paddle or belt. I spank bare handed and I do so because I hate doing it, and I hate the feeling of my hand hurting after laying a few whacks on a belligerent backside. If it is painless for me then it is too easy to do it without thought. And I put a great deal of thought into the process of correcting a kid before it ends up in spankings.

When I was a kid my dad used to tell the neighbors it was OK to spank me if I was ever bad, that he would give me more when I got home. I tell you, that always had me thinking twice. Like any kid I got away with what I could, but that extra threat of a tanning prevented me from doing some really stupid shit in my day. And I agree with InfiniteNow to a point that it only makes kids more clever in finding ways to get away with things. But in having to be more clever it is reducing the ease of committing spankable mischief.

As a parent I find that the trick with spankings is that it is part of the battle of wills. If you do not have a trump card to play then your kids WILL rule you. They have to know that they will never be more stubborn than you. And other forms of correction can be frigging exhausting to see to the end. Ever try to ground a kid for a couple of weeks, and then get so exasperated by having them underfoot becasue they are not allowed outside that you end the punishment just to get some alone time? What lesson comes with that. I knew so many kids who knew that their parents would never follow through any punishment to the end. But a spanking is a spanking. The message gets through and you can get on with life without having to act like a prison warden for days and weeks on end.

Another thing with kids. Never threaten something that you are not going to do. Don't tell them you are going to kill them, or break their fingers, or other such nonsense, because it teaches them to doubt your word. If you tell them you are going to do something you need to do it. So you need to say things that you can and will do. When I tell one of my kids they are going to get spanked, they sure as hell believe it, and they rarely push the matter any further. And if they do test my word they learn again how reliable I am as a father.

Boerseun mentioned that the removal of corporal punishment in schools has lead to mayhem in the schools. And Craig counters this with statistics of school violence being down. I would say that both are right, but that this is a case of statistics not telling the whole story. While violence as measured by statistics may be down, the way that children behave in terms of acting respectfully to adults is not just down, it is in many cases gone. As we take the disiplinary teeth out of the schools, and sue or fire those good administrators who would try and preserve an environment of respect and disipline by whacking some kids who get out of line we erode the ability to do anything but cajole the kids back into being good. I remember wanting desperatly as a little kid for my teachers to like me. And they only had to show disappointment with me to get me emotionally back in line. And when I was in Jr High the hint that my parent may be called about something was the worst case scenario. Because my parents were in cahoots with my teachers, and if my teachers told my parents I was misbehaving I would get punished for it but good. Now more often than not when a kid misbehaves in school there is a conference where the teachers try and find out why is gthe kid acting out, is there something that they could do differently or better at school? And in many cases the kids typical survival lie about events turns into accusations of unfairness against the teachers, and they, instead of being a partner with the parents in educating the kids, become a service that will do as it is told, and will just have to deal with Jr's outbursts, and don't make me have to come here and talk to you again because you can't deal with kids. I tell every one of my kids' teachers (in front of the kids) that they have my permission to whack em as hard as they need to if they get out of line. They ususally laugh, but I am dead serious. I trust them as professionals that they would not do it unless all other options had been exhausted. And if my kid brings a teacher to that point, then they are without question acting way out of line.

If anything the schools are too scared of the kids. My little guy is in pre-school. He just turned 4. I was picking him up from school last month one day and the teacher stopped to explain to me and my wife that he had been running when he tripped and fell, and that if had made a small mark on his face where he bumped. I could barely see the mark, it was right on the scar under his eye where he had gotten the seven stitches when he crashed face first into the coffee table. After showing us the mark they noted that it had not slowed him down, and that he was "all boy". Then they got out the peice of paper detailing the incident, and that they had explained to us how he had gotten the mark on his face. And we had to sign the paper to acknowlede the conversation. I was dumbfounded. When they mentioned that he had fallen down and bumped his face my first through was "so what?". He was obvioulsy not hurt. But in this age of litigation not even the smallest of things can go undocumented. Imagine what I would have had to sign if she had hit him!

So a few weeks earlier little #4 had gotten his little but tanned one night for having a fit for several hours because I would not let him sleep in my bed. Again, the battle of wills. He was told that he was not allowed to sleep with us, and he wanted to. So he had a prolonged fit. And it went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Shannon tucked him in a few times. I tucked him in. His brother was crying because he couldn't sleep because of the noise. This began at about 11:00 PM. At about 2:15 AM it was still going, and I decided that it was time to end. I got out of bed and carried him by an arm back into his bed. I poked him in the chest and told him that if he didn't shut up right now and go to sleep on his bed he would get spanked. This was met with the defiant and screaming "I want to sleep in mommy's bed!" He was really angry and was clearly believing that he was going to get what he wanted. Unfortunatly for him I get what I want, and the kids get what they want when I permit it. So I flipped him over and gave him two whacks on the butt and flipped him back. I poked him in the chest again and told him that he was going to shut up right that second so everyone else could sleep, and that he was going to sleep on his bed, and that meant not another word! "Do you understand me?" And he shouted "I want to sleep on mommy's bed!" And I flipped him over again, and I gave him a really hard whack on the butt. It was that magical moment when you can actually see the wax come shooting out of their ears and suddenly everything you are saying begins to make sense to them again. When I flipped him back over he was holding his breath and sucking his lips into his mouth in an effort to stop himself from uttering another sound. I asked him "Are you going to be quite now?" Nods. "Are you going to sleep on your bed now?" Nods. "Good night #4." And I went to bed miserable with a stinging hand. He woke me up the next morning like he does every day by jumping on me and giving me a big hug. Now the point of this is not to glorify the night terrors that I visit upon my kids. #4 knows that he does not have to fear me. Quite the opposite, he trusts me completely. But he knows that there is a line of conduct that he should not cross. And he learns to respect and deal with that boundary through the consistant feedback he gets from me. But the real point of this story is that I left a hand print on his butt with that last whack. If you saw his bare butt there is was clear as day. And Shannon kept him home from school because of that handprint. I have no problem telling anyone what happened. But cultural fear of litigation that is getting stronger and stronger in society forces us to hide what should otherwise be uneventful events as part of raising a family. If for any reason the school had seen a red handprint on his butt they would have been compelled to report it to family services, and I may have ended up in court defending my right to keep my children.

Now speaking of family services. There was a time when #2 was committed to an institution for a week (for reasons that this post is already far to long to get into). During a family counciling session required for getting him let out the topic of corporal punishment came up, and gave me a rare opportunity to sound off to "the man". This very good intentioned woman councelor was breifing us on techniques for avoiding extreme emotional situations. Part of her spiel was that violence or physical contact was never an appropriate solution for problems. I very firmly told her that her statement was fine for her in determining how she ran her household, but it was inappropriate to tell me about running my household. That I had spanked the kids, and I would continue to spank the kids when I saw fit, and that I did not give her permission to tell them otherwise. She quickly moved on to the next topic. My wife was so mortified that I would ever say that in front of a person from the government. But I am not about to lie to protect myself from what is not a crime. That would earn me a spanking.

Bill

[GAHD]

"CP" Was not used on me as a child and I like to think I turned out fine.

In fact, I was taught to respond to any such actions in kind
EG The neighbor tried to muscle me around because he didn't like the way I acted on the sidewalk in front of "my" house; he got a shot to the apple (courtesy of being picked up to his face-height) and a kick to the back of the knee(while coughing) for his efforts.


Kids should be taught self-defense, so that "cp" is actually used in it's proper place; By the defender at the time of defense.

[InfiniteNow]

From personal experience as the recipient:

Spanking should never be an outlet for a parent's frustration or anger.
Spanking should never be used to placate the other parent.
Spanking should only be done by a step-parent if that step-parent takes on all other roles of parenthood.
Spanking has it's place, and is definitely more effective when used sparingly.
Spanking is better done with monkeys...


EDIT: BigDog covered point 1 already. Also, good job. Calm assertiveness, not choking but mimicking the bite of the mother with your hand...

[Rebiu]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

From personal experience as the recipient:

Spanking should never be an outlet for a parent's frustration or anger.
Spanking should never be used to placate the other parent.
Spanking should only be done by a step-parent if that step-parent takes on all other roles of parenthood.
Spanking has it's place, and is definitely more effective when used sparingly.
Spanking is better done with monkeys...


EDIT: BigDog covered point 1 already. Also, good job. Calm assertiveness, not choking but mimicking the bite of the mother with your hand...

How about terrifying the child by espousing you belief in homicidal retribution for suspected sexual transgressions committed against them or are they supposed to think that is as as you do? Would that be acceptable.

[Rincewind]

Originally Posted by Rebiu

Hell I even spank my wife.

So do I -- but only if she asks me nicely.

[Rebiu]

Originally Posted by Rincewind

So do I -- but only if she asks me nicely.

Does she spank you?

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Rebiu

How about terrifying the child by espousing you belief in homicidal retribution for suspected sexual transgressions committed against them or are they supposed to think that is as as you do? Would that be acceptable.

Seriously Rebiu, chill out. I'm not into personal attacks here on Hypography, nor are the rules. If you wish to discuss this, I'd gladly do so through PM.


As GAHD's post above shows, there are always individual differences. To make a blanket statement like it IS wrong or it IS right fails to take into account the context of the situation. I think most people would agree that sometimes punishment is done in excess and sometimes not enough. It's about finding balance between those two and make it specific to the child in question that matters.