Corporal Punishment?

Boerseun · 09-10-2006

Saw Rebiu's thread about "Children are devious" regarding parental habits, and didn't want to hijack it - so I've made a new one here regarding only one specific issue:

Corporal Punishment.

What's you take on it? In raising kids, and in general?

In my opinion, there are a few takes in rearing kids: One would be corporal punishment. Others include the pychological approach, where the whole story is explained to the kid why what he/she did was wrong, and exactly what the consequences are. Other approaches are when the kids are "bribed" into submission, when they might get rewards for their behaviour. This includes taking away TV priviledges, giving them sweets to stop causing havoc, etc.

In my personal opinion, the only form of authority you have over a kid is that you're physically bigger and stronger than the kid, and you can choke and throttle the kid any time you want. Even the youngest of kids know this. It's basic survival. Don't irritate the big guy - you might get killed.
A couple of years later, a slap on the bum or on the back of the hand isn't effective anymore, and then the "psychological" approach can be employed, simply because the kid's brain have developed to the extent where they can actually follow the argument. Then, in a mixed mode, the bribe can be employed as well.

My point is, there are people out there who blow a slap on the bum out the window as being "barbaric", etc., and that the "psychological" and the "bribe" methods should be exclusively employed. In my mind, this leads to spoilt little brats. I have been whacked on the ass when I was a kid, and didn't like it one bit. At the time. But I have never been a spoilt brat, I can tell you.

Beyond the age of ten or so, I believe there is no point in Corporal Punishment at all. But before that, you're essentially dealing with barbarians, and barbaric methods need to be employed.

Any thoughts?

ronthepon · 09-11-2006

In my opinion, Corporeal punishment is something that must be handed out in rare cases, and the one who gives it must never let his anger show while handing it out. Rather, he must let the kid feel that he hates to resort to the method without saying it in the obvious.

In other words, don't make it the mainstream in punishment methods. Keep it aside, for medium sized offences.

I remember when I was around eight, I had developed a nasty habit of telling excellently disgused lies, and people rarely used to find me out. My dad had let me know that I was not doing the right thing, and gave me a few days to clean my self up.
As I refused to listen to him, I was whacked hard on the face, and he let me know (by body language) that he utterly hated doing it.
I doubt that I uttered a single lie for the rest of that year.

Mercedes Benzene · 09-11-2006

Corporal punishment is an interesting debate... and indeed there are good arguements both for and against it.
I think that corporal punishment does teach a lesson to little kids. Naturally, they associate poor behavior with pain of the "Daddy's gonna spank me on my butt" variety.

On the other hand, perhaps it just teaches kids that "violence" is an okay thing, and that later in life they can punish other people with pain of the "Dawg. You spreadin' shit about me. I'm gonna bust a cap on your ass" variety.

The interesting thing is that a lot of countries in Europe completely ban corporal punishment, yet most states in the US allow it.

Some states even allow the punishment in SCHOOLS!

I could not imagine being spanked in school.
For these reasons, i have mixed feelings about this subject.

Boerseun · 09-11-2006

I wonder...

When I was in school, caning was a common form of punishment. This was up to the age of 18; granted - for kids in high school, caning was reserved for major offences only.

Caning, and any other form of corporal punishment have now been banned completely. And all the schools are complaining that discipline has gone for a ball of crap since. Fair enough, it could be said that discipline bred from fear isn't the best of ideas, but hey - in a class of 30-odd kids, it got the job done. And those kids who didn't cause any problems, kids who were there to learn and not cause a ruckus, ultimately benefitted from it.

I think saying that a slap on the bum will necessarily lead to the cappin' of some homie's ass is a bit of an oversimplification. A slap on the bum will define the authority your dad/mom has over you when you're at the age where they can't really explain it to you otherwise - your mind hasn't developed to the point yet where you can follow a big argument or explanation.

Corporal punishment? I'm all for it. Our schools are now falling apart because they have banned corporal punishment without providing a suitable alternative.

ronthepon · 09-11-2006

Quote:

When I was in school, caning was a common form of punishment. This was up to the age of 18; granted - for kids in high school, caning was reserved for major offences only.

Atleast you guys have rules. Here, they cane us even if it's against the law.

Quote:

Fair enough, it could be said that discipline bred from fear isn't the best of ideas, but hey - in a class of 30-odd kids, it got the job done. And those kids who didn't cause any problems, kids who were there to learn and not cause a ruckus, ultimately benefitted from it.

Well... that's fine till an extent. Last year, our chem teacher suddenly decided that the boys needed some moral re-wiring (he'd caught some of my mates doing immoral acts) and began to use his enormous hands on us. Gosh, he was scaring me shitless. And hell, I was probably the (second) nicest guy in the whole school.

It's fine if it's not used as an apparatus for in-school terror(ism). I hated the murderous procedures he did on the boys. Can you imagine throwing NaOH on a guy's feet after catching his barefoot on the football feild?

We were not brave enough to complain, (our principal was a old cowardly dweeb and we feared for his life as well) and had to resort to the 'Oh please! Oh please!' kind of thing.

In the end, he achieved nothing. The dudes still had BPs in their mobiles, they still saw BFs.

Ahem... I seem to have gone too far with my sob stories.

Quote:

I think saying that a slap on the bum will necessarily lead to the cappin' of some homie's ass is a bit of an oversimplification. A slap on the bum will define the authority your dad/mom has over you when you're at the age where they can't really explain it to you otherwise - your mind hasn't developed to the point yet where you can follow a big argument or explanation.

That... is a perfect justification of the use in my opinion. But as I said earlier, it must not, not, and not be overdone.

Quote:

Our schools are now falling apart because they have banned corporal punishment without providing a suitable alternative.

Actually, not all schools are falling apart.
I had been to a school (twelve in all, BTW) where they focussed on good treatment of the students, 'catching them young', givingthem good habits, good conduct mindsets since the KG level and the separation of bad apples.

That was a good school, it's a pity I don't remember much.

CraigD · 09-11-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beorseun

Corporal Punishment.

What's you take on it? In raising kids, and in general?

As with most discussion of subjects that I (and likely most people) have personally experienced, often in a state emotional turmoil, I think it’s important to separate feeling, wishes, and anecdotes from scientific theory and objective observation.

Avoiding sentimental terms, “raising kids” means shaping the behavior of juvenile H.Sapiens. We (the parent) have a pre-determined collection of desirable behaviors (academic success, willingly helping with household chores, calm under stress, etc.) we want our kids to exhibit, and a collection of undesirable ones (physically attacking others, stealing, panic and debilitating fear under stress, etc.). Based on some theory – scientific or “common sense” – we interact in certain ways in order to shape our kids to maximize the occurrence of behavior from the desirable collection, and minimize the occurance of ones from the undesirable collection.

As people who have actually been parents will attest, this is easier said than done.

IMHO, theory and evidence fail to support a determination that, independent of a larger collection of behavior shaping techniques, corporal punishment should absolutely be used, not be used, or the frequency with which it should be used. Human children, even in their first years, are very behaviorally complicated, reacting to purposeful and accidental influences in both predictable and very unpredictable ways.

Rather than attempt to answer the question “should corporal punishment be used” separately from other considerations, it’s more useful, IMHO, to consider a few more general child (and, in general, social animal) psychological principles. I think the following are among the most important

Like most social animals, human beings are approval-seeking. Parenting approaches that exploit this by focusing on praising children for desired behaviors are effective.
Behavior can’t be shaped if the kid is unable to associate the reinforcer (praise or punishment) with the behavior being encouraged or discouraged. Parenting approaches that confuse kids are ineffective.
intermittent reinforcement is more effective in shaping long-lasting behavior than continuous reinforcement. Parenting approaches that don’t always reward or punish a behavior are more effective than those that do.

Using these and other psychological principles, it appears to me that it’s less important if a parent uses or does not use paddling, than how they use it and other techniques, such as praise and “time out”. When used as part of a well-understood, carefully-administered parenting program, I believe approaches that don’t include corporal punishment and those that do are equally effective, as well as can be measured.

Unfortunately, many parents fail to understand or be careful in their parenting approaches, or even consciously consider that their interaction with their children constitutes an approach. Reckless praise or reckless punishment can be equally ineffective in raising human beings with desired adult behaviors.

Quote:

Caning, and any other form of corporal punishment have now been banned completely. And all the schools are complaining that discipline has gone for a ball of crap since.

”Parenting” by school staff is complicated, because school staff are usually not aware of factors shaping a particular child’s behavior. One child may be chastised by a paddling into begin a model student, while another will increase the targeted bad behavior in proportion to the punishment. Rarely, a child may suffer mental trauma leading to mental illness. On rare occasion, a child will seize the paddle and beat the teacher bloody, a scene I witnessed in my school days in 1970s US (In the 70s US, many teachers who paddled used a heavy, shaped “board” given to them by their college fraternity or sorority. These paddles typically bear the signatures of their fraternity or sorority brothers and sisters, covered with a nice lacquer finish. Edge-on, they make surprising fierce weapons).

I think schools are correct in eliminating corporal punishment. They should be sure to let custodial parents know of any problems that occurring in school, and leave it to the parent to punish their children as they see fit.

Quote:

Our schools are now falling apart because they have banned corporal punishment without providing a suitable alternative.

I’m not aware of data from Boersen’s schools, but in the US, the often expressed idea that the schools are “falling apart” due to student behavior is not supported by evidence. As measured by the per-student incidence of violent crime, schools have, along with the population as a whole, seen a marked decrease in such problems over the last 50 years. Sadly, many people believe the opposite, in large part, I think, because news outlets focus excessively on the most disturbing school problems, ignoring statistics and the laudable records of good behavior in most schools.

Ganoderma · 09-14-2006

Although I agree mostly with what is said, I have to say I am not willing to let a school physically harm my child. As Chris Tucker said in Rush Hour (I think that’s the movie) "Every scratch in my car is a scratch in your a**" Same goes for my kids, or even nephews/nieces.

I am a teacher and the bigger the class the harder it is to discipline (although I was always first to whine about how whiny teachers are about working too much, but it really limits the education quality). I have NEVER hit a kid, even though parents here instruct me that I SHOULD do it. My boss says to use the ruler or a plastic hammer, fellow teachers say to do the same. Many parents here say “Be mean, it’s the only way they will listen.” It is a very common tool to raising kids here. As far as I am concerned if you can’t teach a kid with words, don’t be a teacher. Other tools like relocating certain kids to certain classes is my best tool for eliminating problems and letting the "good" kids advance at a faster rate. It *can* be a useful tool in discipline but is rarely used proper or in appropriate circumstances.

I guess my main problem is you are having a stranger punish your children because they did something that he/she (the stranger) did not agree with. Perhaps this is not your beliefs and would then not only confuse but put the child in a very difficult spot (which one is right? Why is it ok to say this word at home and not at school….there are many possible religious incidents as well). I think at home, it has its place. It does not belong in the school system, although I agree that, especially North American, schools need some far better methods to discipline a child. But it is a little hard to say what is right. The school right could be far different from the home right. Should the child be punished for being home right at school?

paigetheoracle · 09-27-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Corporal Punishment.

What's you take on it? In raising kids, and in general?
...
Any thoughts?

Personally I'm against corporal punishment - why don't sergeants get hit as well?

No but seriously - in Britain we have a saying, save the rod, spoil the child. I don't think this means you should beat them to a pulp but who are parents, who don't use corporal punishment, trying to impress? Kids who walk all over you, so that 'you' can appear Mr Nice Guy, then in turn walk all over society. Parents should not try to be popular anymore than politicians as without discipline control (form) collapses and chaos rules: Remember, heroes are considered criminals by villians because they thwart their plans - so morally, should you let them torture, maim and kill because you want to be liked by them?

Does that mean parents and kids shouldn't play with each other? No but you've got to both be in the state for it and on top of this kids should be encouraged to play their part in the household as it makes them feel worthwhile and a part of the team, rather than outsiders with no useful role in life.

As Robert Frost said "Good fences make good neighbours". Without boundaries and privacy, kids feel they have no rights, no life of their own and it's usually such kids who feel they don't exist, that go out to prove more than any other that they do, through vandalism and violent crime ("You hate me? Well I hate you more and first!" attitude).