Gay-to-straight therapy repudiated

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Heck - that kinda reminds me of years ago, when left-handed kids had to attend special remedial classes to learn how to write "properly", i.e., with their right hands.

Shizaam... you writes lefts, you writes lefts, goddamnit.

It really makes one wonder why the AMA actually spent time to repudiate this type of "therapy"?

Was it a scorn on the image of psychology? Were they receiving hate mail?

Why would they bother to even address this?

[Pyrotex]

There are some groups out there who have a vested interest in "proving" the theory that being gay is merely a lifestyle choice. For example, some of the christian fundementalists.

Here is more info on the history of straight-to-gay therapy, which contains a lot of links.

There was a "gay conversion" clinic here in Houston at one time, but I think it's been gone for a while.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

There are some groups out there who have a vested interest in "proving" the theory that being gay is merely a lifestyle choice. For example, some of the christian fundementalists.

Ah, right. Sounds familiar...

Here is more info on the history of straight-to-gay therapy, which contains a lot of links.

You mean gay-to-straight, correct?

There was a "gay conversion" clinic here in Houston at one time, but I think it's been gone for a while.

Do you remember what it was called?
Surely it wasn't "Gay Conversion Clinic of Houston". How would they mask the name?
The article you linked to refers to them as "ex-gay institutions". But that doesn't really sound very appealing on many different levels.

I'm curious about the spin they would put on it, if any.

EDIT: nevermind, I think I found my answer on the bottom of page 1 from Pyro's link.

What are "live-in" ministries?

Live in ministries are ex-gay camps run by organizations such as Exodus. For a fee, parents can send their children to these religion-based camps for reparative therapy. There they are taught techniques on how to suppress their queer feelings and how religion can help them make the transition. Adults struggling with same gender feelings can also attend.

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by freeztar

It really makes one wonder why the AMA actually spent time to repudiate this type of "therapy"?

Was it a scorn on the image of psychology? Were they receiving hate mail?

Why would they bother to even address this?

Politics. What is acceptable sexual behavior and what is unacceptable sexual behavior? Some behaviors are very cut and dried and there is no argument on the matter that they are unacceptable (necrophilia, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, etc) . Other behaviors are in the gray zone where there is active debate about what is acceptable behavior and what is not. The politics of the homosexual debate drive decisions like this. In the rush to make homosexuality universally accepted it appears that some people have to get thrown under the proverbial bus.

There are those who feel that homosexuality is unacceptable behavior; there are also people who do not condemn homosexuality but believe that people find themselves trapped in homosexual lifestyles and don't know how to get out, much the same way that people find themselves in heterosexual lives and would prefer to be homosexual; and among them are those who believe that the desire to engage in homosexual sex can be overcome through therapy. Some of these people are in fact ex-homosexuals who came to regret their behavior and chose a different path. They seek to help others who may be in the same situation. Unfortunately these are often linked to religious movements which taints the motivation for making the attempt to switch people from gay to straight.

The fact is that there are situations where such therapy is appropriate. My neighbor has a child who suffers from mitochondrial disease, which leaves him with some challenging developmental disorders. When he was in preschool his bus driver (an elderly man) kidnapped and molested him. He was found only two or three days into the ordeal and returned to his family. He was largely unaware of what had happened, but was left with an obsession for homosexual contact. I believe that therapy to help him find a sexual identity that is not built from this unfortunate experience is quite appropriate.

I had the experience of participating in group therapy for teen boys who had been convicted of sexually aggressive behavior. Some of them were addicted to pornography (not like you and I were addicted; addicted as in resorting to criminal behavior without regard to consequences to get access to porn). Others had molested other adolescents near their age or younger. Others were sex addicts who would approach adults to solicit sex. The boys in the group I worked with were from the age of 13 to 17. The program they were in was court ordered therapy to help them learn impulse control, specifically impulse control around sex drive.

I have always been hesitant to write about this because there is confidentiality involved, and I am trying to proceed with great care to explain the reality of these youths without compromising the trust that they have given to me.

Some of these boys found themselves involved in homosexuality at an early age, and as they developed did not want that anymore, but they developed physiological triggers that gave them a sexual reaction that was in conflict with their heterosexual intellectual and physiological desires. They liked girls, they wanted to date, and to have girlfriends, to be fathers some day, but early sexual experiences gave them ingrained reactions to homosexual stimulus. Some of the boys had accepted that they were in fact homosexual, but not all. Should these youths be denied therapy to help them find a way to bring clarity to their sexual identity?

We are a society that lets people seek therapy for changing their gender. Homosexuals gladly help people choose a homosexual lifestyle over a hetero one, they even celebrate the "coming out" of a person. Why would we ignore those who are unhappy with being homosexual? While homosexuality may be perfectly natural, not all arrive at being homosexual in a manner that they wish to accept as "natural" and may ultimately decide that homosexuality is not natural for them. Denying therapy for these people is a crime.

Bill

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

Denying therapy for these people is a crime.

You had me hook, line, and sinker...until...the last sentence.

I question the "therapy". How effective is it?

BTW, thank you for the frankness.

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by freeztar

You had me hook, line, and sinker...until...the last sentence.

I question the "therapy". How effective is it?

BTW, thank you for the frankness.

I don't know how effective it is. I would not know how to measure it because quite honestly most of the youths I worked with had a very difficult time with honesty. You never really knew if they were just saying what they thought you wanted to hear or if they were being real. My question is this; if the therapy is 1% effective, is that 1% worthy of the help? How effective does the therapy need to be to justify itself? That becomes part of the debate.

A twelve year old boy is convinced by a friend he adores (non-sexual) to engage him in oral sex. It takes time and peer pressure and the other things that kids do to convince someone to play along, but the kid does it. Then he does it for someone else. Then someone else. He finds he can make friends this way. When he hits puberty he starts to not want to do this anymore, but this is his group of friends, and this is how he is a member of the group. He has become submissive sexually to his friends and finds himself falling into a gay lifestyle. This is his adapted behavior, but is in conflict with innate heterosexuality that he is feeling. Therapy can help him to understand the difference between familiar behavior and desired behavior, and to find coping mechanisms to move from one to the other. And yes, this can go both ways, a person who is heterosexual only because it is familiar behavior should be allowed to seek therapy to help them cope with unwanted heterosexual desires.

The fact that there are religious organizations that promote this therapy cannot be allowed to poison the secular reasons that exist for helping people cope with life experiences which may include feeling trapped as a homosexual.

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

Bill, it is my impression that you are not accurately describing the intent of the therapy.
You make it out be some form of kind help provided to those poor folks who are not happy with who they are and who wish to change... based on their own preferences and decisions.

That's not what the OP was discussing. There are regular therapists to help them with that.

What has been repudiated is the idea that you can convert a homosexual into a heterosexual against their will using such therapy... So, while I appreciate the personal and heart-felt nature of your post, I think it misses the point rather profoundly.

[Larv]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

...While homosexuality may be perfectly natural, not all arrive at being homosexual in a manner that they wish to accept as "natural" and may ultimately decide that homosexuality is not natural for them. Denying therapy for these people is a crime.

I very much liked your post, Bill. I take it, then, that you disagree with the APA's repudiation of all forms of gay-to-straight therapy. I do agree with you that raped children might be helped by therapy if they were turning gay by way of perversion and abuse. But what do we say then when such a person decides that he/she is "naturally" homosexual, even if his/her sexual orientation was cause by criminal acts.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

I don't know how effective it is. I would not know how to measure it because quite honestly most of the youths I worked with had a very difficult time with honesty. You never really knew if they were just saying what they thought you wanted to hear or if they were being real. My question is this; if the therapy is 1% effective, is that 1% worthy of the help? How effective does the therapy need to be to justify itself? That becomes part of the debate.

You make a good case here. How can we quantify the worthiness of the endeavors in such cases?

Well, I think it is ok to at least form some sort of metric. As you pointed out, anything above 0% is worthy of recognition.

The other part of the debate is, "what about the children that don't have a choice and are ostracized by the current dogma of society?".

How many of these "need to be reformed" kids are ending up in "live-in Ministries" vs. how many kids are just curious and need some counciling to get them back on track (whatever track that may be)?

A twelve year old boy is convinced by a friend he adores (non-sexual) to engage him in oral sex. It takes time and peer pressure and the other things that kids do to convince someone to play along, but the kid does it. Then he does it for someone else. Then someone else. He finds he can make friends this way. When he hits puberty he starts to not want to do this anymore, but this is his group of friends, and this is how he is a member of the group. He has become submissive sexually to his friends and finds himself falling into a gay lifestyle. This is his adapted behavior, but is in conflict with innate heterosexuality that he is feeling. Therapy can help him to understand the difference between familiar behavior and desired behavior, and to find coping mechanisms to move from one to the other. And yes, this can go both ways, a person who is heterosexual only because it is familiar behavior should be allowed to seek therapy to help them cope with unwanted heterosexual desires.

I completely agree, TBD. Counseling should be available for all teens, but should we have "ex-gay" "Live-in Ministries? Perhaps that's not the proper approach, especially if we use 1%.

The fact that there are religious organizations that promote this therapy cannot be allowed to poison the secular reasons that exist for helping people cope with life experiences which may include feeling trapped as a homosexual.

Indeed, and well stated.

In your experience, TBD, have you seen reformative events? You've mentioned certain conflicts that a teenager might have, but how were they resolved? Since you have personal experience, and I trust you, what would you estimate the percentage of incoming vs. outgoing success? You said 1% before, but I would guess that it would be higher than that?

[Cedars]

I havent read the whole report. I really think this position paper could have been shortened greatly.

I found it at the bottom of the original press release.

APA Press Release: Insufficient Evidence that Sexual Orientation Change Efforts Work, Says APA

But its 130+ pages long so I havent read it all yet.

BigDog, you bring up some excellent points. I knew people who experimented. I know of adults who still struggle and I know of many who wish (at different points in their life) they were not homosexual. The paper does touch on how to handle those who are seeking to change their orientation because some people are actively seeking help to change their sexual orientation. Grown up adults. It talks of the faults in the methodology of the past reports of success with changing an orientation and how their conclusions may be faulty (reports which indicate success on preference change) but admits participants have changed their behavior.