atom identity

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atom identity

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Published by amidst 09-27-2007

Hi there are atoms of a paticular element say hydrogen for example exactly identcal or are they as individual as we are, in other words are there some very minor differences between them.

By Qfwfq on 09-28-2007

Re: atom identity

They're indistinguishable and there are consequences of this which even have some macroscopic effects. For instance, the indistinguishibility of helium atoms is the reason for superfluidity.

By sanctus on 10-03-2007

Re: atom identity

same applies to photons too, the thing called "teleportation" (which not like you would imagine from SF) works also because photons are indistinguishable...

By Qfwfq on 10-03-2007

Re: atom identity

Of course, if we don't talk at just the atomic level, for the case of photons it is essential to the working of the laser, for the case of electrons it's the basis of superconductivity, ferromagnetism and... Pauli's exclusion principle without which there would be no such thing as chemistry!

By amidst on 10-03-2007

Re: atom identity

Hi guys and thanks for your input. Now then i kinda understand what you mean but when you use the term indistinguishable do you mean that there is at present no known method or device to detect any difference. I just cant help feeling that no two things in the universe can be absolutely identical surely there must be some difference (or perhaps not).

By Qfwfq on 10-04-2007

Re: atom identity

Quote:

Originally Posted by amidst

...but when you use the term indistinguishable do you mean that there is at present no known method or device to detect any difference.

If we found such a method or device, we'd have to look for totally new explanations of some things, including the very fundamental Pauli exclusion principle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amidst

I just cant help feeling that no two things in the universe can be absolutely identical surely there must be some difference (or perhaps not).

It's a tricky thing to explain starting from scratch, but talking about two atoms of the same kind is very unlike talking about two ball bearings from the same production line.

By Little Bang on 10-09-2007

Re: atom identity

The very fact that the proton and electron are totally indistinguishable from all other protons and electrons implies that we don't have a clue as to the true construction of either. The quark model wants to keep making the proton out of smaller and smaller pieces and like amidst says it's hard to believe there is no difference if the constituent parts keep getting smaller.

By Qfwfq on 10-10-2007

Re: atom identity

You mean that two protons might be distinguished by counting their quarks. If this were possible, we'd have to say that superfluidity of helium is magic.

By Little Bang on 10-10-2007

Re: atom identity

No I don't mean that. If protons are made of quarks then it seems reasonable to think that quarks are made of some smaller components. If you have two buckets of sand and each bucket contains exactly the same number of grains they would look identical from afar but you and I know if examined up close they would show differences.

By Qfwfq on 10-11-2007

Re: atom identity

The single grains of sand are not indistinguishable.

Quarks of a feather flock together.

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