Clock Dilation: Its cause?

Beginning with a stationary observer on the surface of the earth, the rate at which clocks operate changes with altitude and with speed relative to the observer. The question is: What is the cause for this clock dilation? The clock's operation is a physical occurrence. Does empirical evidence...

You agree with what parts. Am I too stupid to understand? Is that what you think also? I know what proper time is. But that is not what is said. The word is 'time'. I say proper time is equivalent to clock time. Therefore, it is clock dilation and not time dilation.

James

INow was not saying you were too stupid to understand anything. He was saying (which I strongly agree with) that you need not "dumb down" the terms you are using. Doing so both confuses people who are well versed on this subject and is a stumbling block for those who would like to become so.

If you insist on declaring proper time is equivalent to "clock time" as you state above then simply use the term proper time. It is a commonly used term in physics and people will understand you. I fail to see the problem with that.

-modest

How can a clock be dilated?

This is what you quoted.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow
Also, there is no need to "dumb down" physics simply because people who are too lazy to study or too stupid to understand haven't yet figured out how words are properly used in this context. Clock dilation? Really? Come on...

The problem is that Einstein's treatment of time has led to the theory of spacetime. Where does that leap of imagination come into play. Or, would you say that space really means proper length and time really means proper time. What is spacetime? Is it four dimensions that include three coordinates of real space and one of real time? Are real space and real time interdependent or is there simply a relationship between changes in length and measurements of time? None of this is meant to challenge you or your depth of knowledge. I would simply ask that an explanation be given that uses the words that accurately convey what is meant by spacetime. It would help in debate and might also be useful to general readers that have a strong interest in learning about Einstein's theories.

James

Or Minkowski's treatment of spacetime led to Einstein's special relativity. Either way, the Lorentz transformations are the correct treatment of the discussion at hand. They are a direct result of combining space and time into space-time.

In a Newtonian sense spatial distance is independent of temporal "distance". This is not exactly accurate, we've known for some time now. The correct treatment is a four vector on something like the Minkowski metric. This leads to many terms like: "light-like distance" "space-time interval" "proper time" or "coordinate time". These things are precisely defined in the metric and transformations linked above.

I'm unsure exactly what it is about these concepts you wish to investigate.

-modest

This is why I work from the fundamentals step by step. Great leaps forward into complex theory and the terms that are born out of the theory do not address the question of: What have we learned about the operation of the universe that leads step by step toward fuller understanding. If Einstein's theory is correct, then we should be able to see the development of that theory step by step from the fundamentals. Transform equations force a relationship without going through this step by step approach. Transform equations are not safe mathematics for helping to learn truth about the operation of the universe. That is my opinion. I think now that this discussion probably is not going to settle anything. I respect your viewpoint. Thank you for your time.

James

Clock dilation implies that (for instance) while a clock would slow down perhaps other "measures" of time will not- i.e. a mechanical clock might slow, but a human heart might beat at the same rate, or an electric clock might go at the normal rate. However, we can synch a heart to a mechanical clock, so the heart must also slow down, etc.

The key thing is that your "clock dilation" is independent of the clock (any clock), and hence is more properly ascribed to a property of time.
-Will

This is not only a good approach, some might argue that it’s the only approach that actually works. While “leaps of intuition” are commonly reported in math and science, after such experiences, the mathematician or scientist must be able to present proof of their theorem or the derivation of their theoretical prediction in a formal, step-by-step manner.True.

For this reason, effective instruction in Math and Physics needs to, and in nearly all ordinary academic setting do, follow a series of well-explained, orderly, step-by-step explanations.

Unfortunately, internet science forums - even one as esteemed as hypography – aren’t like well-taught academic classes. People tend to discuss ideas assuming readers have about the same academic experience as they do, which is often not true. Being less formal and hierarchical than the usual class setting, we’re really not suited to ordinary academic communication – in short, science forums aren’t a substitute for science classes.

Nonetheless, I’ll try to give an overview of physics sufficient to put time dilation in a sensible context.The theory of special relativity is very succinct and straight-forward in proceeding from its assumptions (postulates) to its conclusions.

It begins with an earlier theory of relativity, Galilean relativity. To understand Galilean relativity, it’s helpful to consider what it is not, the pre and early scientific ideas that preceded it. In short, these views held that the laws of physics were different for moving bodies than “stationary” ones. This made intuitive sense, based on everyday experience: actions performed in the interiors of jostling horse-drawn carriages or pitching ships at sea seemed to obey different laws of motion than those done on solid ground. A natural conclusion of this view was geocentrism: if Earth was orbiting Sol at a great speed, surely we would feel it. The eventual acceptance of Galilean relativity went along with that of heliocentism, and continued to be accepted when Isaac Newton much improved its mathematical formalism.

By the late 19th century, however, with the great successes of James Clerk Maxwell and others in describing electromagnetism and light as wave phenomena, the idea that Galilean relativity could be violated by such things as measurements of the speed of light from a moving body was widely entertained, culminating in the famous Michelson–Morley experiment, which attempted, in essence, to do just that, and, along with subsequent experiments, wound up not only supporting Galilean relativity, but adding to its list of laws of physics that were the same regardless of motion a new, and to many unexpected, item: the constancy of the speed of light.

Hence, special relativity as described by Einstein has two postulates: the first, Galilean relativity; the second, that the speed of light in vacuum is constant.Working from these two postulates, time dilation and the equation that describes it – usually called the Lorentz factor – follow from very simple geometry.

The usual “though experiment” illustration of this is the “light clock”, which simply notes the difference in the path of a reflected pulse of light observed by a person stationary with respect to the apparatus vs. a person moving with respect to it. The shape of this path is a triangle. In the simplest units (known as Planck units) The Lorentz factor (or, precisely, its reciprocal) is just the famous Pythagorean formula for one side of a right triangle with a diagonal of length 1 given the length of the other side : .

This series of small steps of explanation allows us to answer part of this thread’s original question:According to relativity, clocks do not run slower when in motion as perceived by an observer at rest relative to the clock. No sort of physical stress, shaking, etc. is involved – time dilation (it makes little sense, IMHO, to reject the most well known term for the effect for philosophical reasons) is simply a geometric effect due to differences in observers, somewhat analogous to effects such as geometric perspective.

As is usually the case when that thorn-in-the-side of physics, gravity, is involved, things get more complicated - but no less explicable in a step-by-step manner - when one considers the gravitational time dilation of the general theory of relativity. It’s an educational tradition, therefore, for the student to become comfortable with special relativity before undertaking the study of general relativity.

[quote=CraigD;224899]...This series of small steps of explanation allows us to answer part of this thread’s original question:According to relativity, clocks do not run slower when in motion as perceived by an observer at rest relative to the clock. No sort of physical stress, shaking, etc. is involved – time dilation (it makes little sense, IMHO, to reject the most well known term for the effect for philosophical reasons) is simply a geometric effect due to differences in observers, somewhat analogous to effects such as geometric perspective.....QUOTE]

Yes, " According to relativity, clocks do not run slower when in motion as perceived by an observer at rest relative to the clock.", but according to reality, THEY DO !

Relativity itself has a foundation, or a cause. However, if one ignores the cause of Relativistic circumstances, then one ends up with circular arguments, since the complete truth of the matter is never included within the arguments.


As shown within the above video, if one was to measure the speed of light that is crossing the entirety of an object that is 300,000km in length, this occurrence would be measured as a 1 second event. Also as shown, this would be measured as a 1 second event, even if the 300,000km long object was in motion across Space at 260,000km per second, nor would it matter which way the light was to travel relative to the direction of the objects motion. The outcome of this measurement of the speed of light always gives the same results.

This would also apply if one was to measure the speed of a super high speed bullet that was fired from one end of the 300,000km long object to the other. Here too, the results would always be the same no matter what velocity the 300,000km long object( or platform, or frame of reference, etc ) had across Space.

But by no means does this happen without reason.

You're either misunderstanding or you're going to need to give a source for this. You are saying that a person who accelerates three quarters of the speed of light will look at his wrist watch and see it moving slow? According to reality, you think that would happen - and you can support that?

-modest