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05-10-2009
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Thinking
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Placebo - mind over matter?
Could placebo effectiveness be proof of mind over...
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Author of 'Empty Thoughts from an Empty Head' and other trivia including 'Logic Lists English, the cure for illiteracy (allegedly)  '. |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
The way I view placebo is the same way I see 'lucky charms' - belief driven. It works by drawing attention to what is wrong and believing it can be fixed as opposed to abandonment and depression, which is believing nothing works, so staying ill or getting worse.
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Could placebo effectiveness be proof of mind over...
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I guess it all depends on what you mean. My interpretation is no. Here are some ideas to consider:
1. The placebo effect also works with real treatments
2. Placebo effects are not strong clinical effects
3. Pill color and type make a difference
4. People receiving pain killers and thought they were getting a placebo reported less benefit
5. Placebos don't work on people that are asleep
6. Placebos usually affect only subjective issues such as pain, headaches, nausea, and so forth
7. Placebos usually do not affect objective issues - things that can be measured (poor evidence for this)
8. People told that a side effect of a drug was nausea suffered adverse effects to the inert material |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Originally Posted by stereologist
I guess it all depends on what you mean. My interpretation is no. Here are some ideas to consider:
1. The placebo effect also works with real treatments
2. Placebo effects are not strong clinical effects
3. Pill color and type make a difference
4. People receiving pain killers and thought they were getting a placebo reported less benefit
5. Placebos don't work on people that are asleep
6. Placebos usually affect only subjective issues such as pain, headaches, nausea, and so forth
7. Placebos usually do not affect objective issues - things that can be measured (poor evidence for this)
8. People told that a side effect of a drug was nausea suffered adverse effects to the inert material
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All the above seem to suggest mind over matter to me, including pill colour and sleep (If you're asleep, how can you suggest/ hypnotize somebody into believing that they are getting better or worse as the above suggests). It won't remove a tumour but if you read 'Anatomy of an Illness' by Norman Cousins, you might see that the power of positive suggestion does work but over time, not instantly as with a scalpel. |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
I see all of the above reasons for showing there is no 'mind over matter'.
For example, you still have a mind if asleep, yet no effect is observed.
An interesting attitude is that some people get 'hooked' on the placebos. They demand that the doctor continue to give them the placebo even after being told that it is an inert material. Doctors admit prescribing placebos, for example prescribing antibiotics for viral infections.
Like I suggested before, it all depends on what 'mind over matter' is defined to be.
Do you have a definition?
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereologist
I see all of the above reasons for showing there is no 'mind over matter'.
For example, you still have a mind if asleep, yet no effect is observed.
An interesting attitude is that some people get 'hooked' on the placebos. They demand that the doctor continue to give them the placebo even after being told that it is an inert material. Doctors admit prescribing placebos, for example prescribing antibiotics for viral infections.
Like I suggested before, it all depends on what 'mind over matter' is defined to be.
Do you have a definition?
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That which believes it can control matter and therefore can - you in other words: As somebody said 'If you believe you can do something, you can (include curing yourself - it's called motivation) - if you believe you can't, you won't' (Henry Ford?). If you move it is your will power that achieves this otherwise it couldn't happen: There has to be a you that wants to achieve things for them to happen, it doesn't happen spontaneously for no reason or don't you believe in cause and effect? |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
I don't believe we can control matter by thinking. Numerous studies have shown that thinking about a cure does not cure. Cancer is not cured by thinking a cure. Thinking, prayer, motivation, or what ever you want to call it did not stop AIDS.
Diseases can be stopped in comatose patients. Although the placebo effect is not seen in sleeping or unaware patients drugs do work.
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereologist
I don't believe we can control matter by thinking. Numerous studies have shown that thinking about a cure does not cure. Cancer is not cured by thinking a cure. Thinking, prayer, motivation, or what ever you want to call it did not stop AIDS.
Diseases can be stopped in comatose patients. Although the placebo effect is not seen in sleeping or unaware patients drugs do work.
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What you're saying is that drugs and operations cure diseases? I use drugs to 'control' my migraines but it doesn't cure the dis-ease and it was emotion (anger) that started them. You can control pests in the garden and put down fertilizer to encourage growth. You can also harvest what you've planted but you still need the roots of the good plants to survive and to kill the weeds to optimize the crop. If the root of a dis-ease is mental and not physical, killing the effect upon the body through drugs or cutting out the offending parts through surgery, won't cure the patient - hence remission, not to mention iatrogenic damage through surgical procedures and drug reactions/ overdoses.
What percentage of patients die under medical supervision as opposed to survive cancer without it and why do people in China survive cancer where people in the West die in their droves from it? These are questions that need answering. Why the spread of Aids and why are some people surviving it nowadays? Why doesn't every accident or illness kill every victim alike? Why do some survive while others succumb? These are questions you should ask yourself and indeed this is the whole point of this thread. Not to blandly accept that we know the answers to everything but to search for them diligently and that means both you and me as well as everyone else interested in this thread. The world needs to progress or die out like the dinosaurs, through lack of evolution of thought, leading to evolution of body i.e. every research, leading to every advance in our knowledge and abilities to act therefore to our individual or racial advantage. |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereologist
I don't believe we can control matter by thinking. Numerous studies have shown that thinking about a cure does not cure. Cancer is not cured by thinking a cure. Thinking, prayer, motivation, or what ever you want to call it did not stop AIDS.
Diseases can be stopped in comatose patients. Although the placebo effect is not seen in sleeping or unaware patients drugs do work.
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i don't believe this to be true.
See my previous posts.
What evidence have you that sleeping or comatose patients are not affected by placebos? |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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i don't believe this to be true.
See my previous posts.
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Can you clarify this? |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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What you're saying is that drugs and operations cure diseases?
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Yes. In some cases. You point to a disease in which the treatment is not a cure.
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What percentage of patients die under medical supervision as opposed to survive cancer without it and why do people in China survive cancer where people in the West die in their droves from it? These are questions that need answering. Why the spread of Aids and why are some people surviving it nowadays? Why doesn't every accident or illness kill every victim alike? Why do some survive while others succumb? These are questions you should ask yourself and indeed this is the whole point of this thread. Not to blandly accept that we know the answers to everything but to search for them diligently and that means both you and me as well as everyone else interested in this thread. The world needs to progress or die out like the dinosaurs, through lack of evolution of thought, leading to evolution of body i.e. every research, leading to every advance in our knowledge and abilities to act therefore to our individual or racial advantage.
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There are a lot issues here.
My main question is, do you have any evidence of the cancer in China statement? |
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