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05-10-2009
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Thinking
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Placebo - mind over matter?
Could placebo effectiveness be proof of mind over...
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Author of 'Empty Thoughts from an Empty Head' and other trivia including 'Logic Lists English, the cure for illiteracy (allegedly)  '. |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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What evidence have you that sleeping or comatose patients are not affected by placebos?
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I read about it in sleep studies. |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Originally Posted by Michaelangelica
i don't believe this to be true.
See my previous posts.
What evidence have you that sleeping or comatose patients are not affected by placebos?
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Thank you for bringing this up! (Some people want to know and don't mind being challenged, others pump out the same old thing without listening to others, even though they say they do (replies prove they don't)). On top of this isn't it funny how some people won't listen to what you say, then tell you you're wrong?
When we're convinced we're right, we won't look at any evidence that might contradict this but when our guard is down, we might 'accidentally' (unconsciously) open up our minds and see the truth: For instance I was so convinced the stuff I used on the shower cleaned it as well, if not better than the stuff the wife used, that I didn't check the results. When I accidentally looked at the shower wall and saw the smears, instead of dismissing her claim out of hand, I saw she was actually right!
This is why I stated in one of my posts ages ago that only the open, the innocent see ghosts, UFO's or anything unusual/ paranormal because they are not defended against such possibilities. |
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Last edited by paigetheoracle; 06-07-2009 at 08:11 AM..
Reason: new point
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Originally Posted by stereologist
I read about it in sleep studies.
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What would you call hypnotism? Yoga Nidra? Auto-suggestion, Meditation?
Mind Powers-How to Use and Control Your Mind
What is the function of sleep? |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Originally Posted by stereologist
Yes. In some cases. You point to a disease in which the treatment is not a cure.
There are a lot issues here.
My main question is, do you have any evidence of the cancer in China statement?
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No, what I can tell you that this used to be the case in pre-industrialized China but increased stress and pollution has altered this fact, making it the largest killer and perhaps this was true of the pre-industrialized West too but I have no proof of that, only that it existed even in Shakespeare's time but has come to prominence as a killer disease in the last hundred years or so. The evidence I have is anecdotal in that it was from a Chinese doctor my wife works with, who said in her time there it was chronic but not aggressive and who better to know? |
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Last edited by paigetheoracle; 06-07-2009 at 09:45 AM..
Reason: Missed point
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
Part of the problem in understanding issues such as cancer is that the mortality rate changes as diseases are addressed. More people may die from a given cause if other causes are eliminated or reduced. People no longer die of smallpox. Those deaths now are due to other causes.
The life expectancy has also risen partially as a result of the elimination of some causes of death. This also makes some diseases more common.
Better diagnostic methods also make some diseases appear to be more common. People who used to "get sick and die", might now be labeled as "died of aggressive cancer."
Don't forget that Shakespeare lived around the late 1500s into the early 1600s. The microscope was invented just before 1600. Hooke and Leeuwenhoek were in the mid to late 1600s. This just tells you how rudimentary medical science was at the time.
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Originally Posted by stereologist
Part of the problem in understanding issues such as cancer is that the mortality rate changes as diseases are addressed. More people may die from a given cause if other causes are eliminated or reduced. People no longer die of smallpox. Those deaths now are due to other causes.
The life expectancy has also risen partially as a result of the elimination of some causes of death. This also makes some diseases more common.
Better diagnostic methods also make some diseases appear to be more common. People who used to "get sick and die", might now be labeled as "died of aggressive cancer."
Don't forget that Shakespeare lived around the late 1500s into the early 1600s. The microscope was invented just before 1600. Hooke and Leeuwenhoek were in the mid to late 1600s. This just tells you how rudimentary medical science was at the time.
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Interesting - so that is what you meant about it being complicated! |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
What causes accidents? Failure to pay attention to what you're doing/ where you are.+ What causes illness? Failure to look after yourself, through simple hygiene or to listen to what your body is telling you (sensory information again however not external but internal).* Again this is failed attention at personal or social level. Then of course there is mental illness in the form of depression, which again is inattention or failure to connect with the real world i.e. that which is here/ physically in front of you.
+ Dropping asleep at the wheel causes more accidents than being drunk but both are failure to be present and control the situation you find yourself in, the latter deliberately and the former because you cannot resist the impulse to let go of consciousness (see also Mike quote for the latter, below)
* Allowing things to grow in you, in the form of tumours, disease etc. or allowing poisons to accumulate, is slow suicide - Mike, didn't you say something in a recent post about thinking something was suicide (this thread maybe?), masked as something else? Ah yes, here it is - post no. 7, here and I quote 'Sometimes I wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?'
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Last edited by paigetheoracle; 06-08-2009 at 12:00 AM..
Reason: new point
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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What causes accidents? Failure to pay attention to what you're doing/ where you are.+ What causes illness? Failure to look after yourself, through simple hygiene or to listen to what your body is telling you (sensory information again however not external but internal).* Again this is failed attention at personal or social level. Then of course there is mental illness in the form of depression, which again is inattention or failure to connect with the real world i.e. that which is here/ physically in front of you.
+ Dropping asleep at the wheel causes more accidents than being drunk but both are failure to be present and control the situation you find yourself in, the latter deliberately and the former because you cannot resist the impulse to let go of consciousness (see also Mike quote for the latter, below)
* Allowing things to grow in you, in the form of tumours, disease etc. or allowing poisons to accumulate, is slow suicide - Mike, didn't you say something in a recent post about thinking something was suicide (this thread maybe?), masked as something else? Ah yes, here it is - post no. 7, here and I quote 'Sometimes I wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?'
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I don't think your notion that disease spread through failure to look after yourself. Think of counter examples. It's easy. As far as mental illness s concerned, I think your comment is way off mark.
I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.
Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.
I skipped over most of the comments like this because they weren't worth addressing. |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
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Originally Posted by stereologist
I don't think your notion that disease spread through failure to look after yourself. Think of counter examples. It's easy.
You mean like dirty water from wells? As I come up with this 'I leave it to you' attitude to putting forward proof myself, I'm afraid I must challenge you on it as you and others have challenged me in the past
As far as mental illness s concerned, I think your comment is way off mark.
With regards to depression or mental illness per se?
I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.
What other causes are there?
Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.
Asymptomatic or unaware? Think of the TV exploitation shows on giant tumours or gigantically overweight people?
I skipped over most of the comments like this because they weren't worth addressing.
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Glad you think so! Are you aware that it was awareness of hygience and not advances in medicine, that led to a healthier population in industrialized England? You seem well read, so I'll assume you do. Then there are the cases mentioned by Elias Metchnikoff in his 1904 book 'Old Age', which covers old people who lived healthy into their eighties and nineties before the medical care we now all enjoy.
William Osler was considered one of the greatest clinicians around at the turn of the century and yet he expressed the view that it wasn't treatment he used that cured the patient but their faith in it and good nursing care. Then there's Francis Peabody's statement that the secret of care for the patient is to be found in caring for the patient.
Then there's the case of hypnosis and its effect upon the Mantoux test for tuberculin, which shows hypnotic suggestion can obliterate the vascular manifestation of the disease - scientific proof of mind over matter. In the 1977 issue of Man and Medicine, Professor Eli Ginzberg of Columbia University states that "No improvement in the health care system will be efficacious unless the citizen assumes full responsibility for his own well being". Need 'I' go on? |
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Re: Placebo - mind over matter?
Think of counter examples. It's easy.
1. Food borne illnesses on cruise ships - happens all the time
2. Food borne illnesses in the regular food system - spinach, tomatoes, green onions
3. Airborne illnesses - Legionaire's disease
Here are 3 examples off the top of my head where large numbers of people have become ill.
Not all depressions are simply due to allowing sadness get out of hand.
I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.
Some accidents are not initiated by humans such as avalanches, lightning strikes, earthquakes, and flash floods.
Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.
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Asymptomatic or unaware? Think of the TV exploitation shows on giant tumours or gigantically overweight people?
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I didn't know you were talking about rare conditions. I was talking about the majority of conditions. |
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