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Published by paigetheoracle 05-10-2009
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Could placebo effectiveness be proof of mind over matter?
  #1 (permalink)  
By Michaelangelica on 05-11-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

yes,the placebo is our most effective drug.
But it could also be a lot more complex than that according to a recent new Scientist article.
The power of the placebo effect - life - 20 August 2008 - New Scientist
also
13 things that do not make sense - space - 19 March 2005 - New Scientist

http://www.cybermed.it/cybermedpdf/F...0Scientist.pdf
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  #2 (permalink)  
By Michaelangelica on 05-16-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

An interesting article on placebo
Take Sam Shoeman, who was diagnosed with end-stage liver cancer in the 1970s and given just months to live. Shoeman duly died in the allotted time frame - yet the autopsy revealed that his doctors had got it wrong. The tumour was tiny and had not spread. "He didn't die from cancer, but from believing he was dying of cancer," says Meador. "If everyone treats you as if you are dying, you buy into it. Everything in your whole being becomes about dying."
The science of voodoo: When mind attacks body - health - 13 May 2009 - New Scientist
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By stereologist on 05-18-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

I believe that this is very possible and likely to be true. From the comments here I thought this was going to be based on case studies.

This extends beyond illness to survival rates in times of disasters. I understand that studies were done to find out why apparently healthy sailors drowned when others survived. It was deemed belief in a rescue that brought the survivors through.
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  #4 (permalink)  
By paigetheoracle on 05-23-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

Thank you Mike - another interesting artcle from you that I need to pass onto somebody at work, dying of cancer (It might help).

Stereologist - nice point about survival for the very reason above!
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  #5 (permalink)  
By paigetheoracle on 05-26-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

Another interesting angle to where this thread has been taken by Mike, is the fact that some people seem immune or become immune to certain things - The Apaches and water overloaded with arsenic, people who milk snakes for their poison and survive, several what should be lethal bites, Steve Irwin who survived stingray attacks in his early career, only to accidentally die from one, when pursuing another creature for his TV show, Jose Ayala from Puerto Rico, who seems immune to electric shock that would kill an ordinary man: Could this all be proof of evolve or die (adaptions to changed conditions, with Irwin as proof that what kills us is not the dangerous substance but the shock of the unexpected?).
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By stereologist on 05-26-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

I would not say we evolve since evolving is a notion attributed to a species and not individuals. I think the term is to become conditioned or tolerant to conditions. I think of callouses as a means of tolerating hard physical conditions.
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  #7 (permalink)  
By Michaelangelica on 06-01-2009
Smile Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paigetheoracle View Post
Thank you Mike - another interesting article from you that I need to pass onto somebody at work, dying of cancer (It might help).
!
The first new scientist article puts a lot of our research in the "suspect" department. Especially meta analysis and even double blind studies and maybe even epidemiological studies. It took me a long time and a dozen reads to really come to grips with what was said. Basically the gold standard meta-analysis is floored. Herbs for example often have many uses. Heartsease is good for divining a lover or husband, a broken heart, making someone fall in love with you, cancer, and perhaps to dim traumatic memories.
The author points out that if you reviewed all the studies- looked at all the studies for opium-meta-analysis (In statistics, a meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses-wiki) for marriage break up, predicting the future, contacting spirits,pain, ingrown toenails, sleep, etc you would have to conclude that it is ineffective. Many herbs have dozens of traditional uses. So a meta-analysis of all the research on the herb (if there is any) will show that the herb is infective when it may be effective in particular situations/disease states.
(or even at particular times of the year sage in flower may contain an anti-aging compound)

On your workmate with cancer
I had a friend/ work colleague some many years ago who was diagnosed with cancer. She went to the oncologist and said the waiting room was dim and funereal with a picture of vultures picking at a skeleton on the wall. (!) When she told the doctor she wanted to treat herself with diet, meditation and herbs he went ballistic, "If you want to kill yourself you don't need my help!" he screamed.
She found another oncologist who agreed to her treatment but said he had to see her every 3 months
She was very strict and disciplined with her diet, organic vegetarian, yoga, meditation, various herbs (like heartsease). She was very disciplined and determined to beat the cancer. The Doc. eventually said " OK see me every 6 months', then every year, the every 2 years, then every three etc-- you get the picture.
Have a look at the Hypography threads "Cancer cures" and " Violets, Violet leaf tea and cyclocides" here at Hypography. There may be something useful there.

Sometimes i wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?

i worked with a psychiatrist in a Tuberculosis ward a long time ago as a young psychiatric nurse in training. He said TB was a psychosomatic disease. We all howled him down disbelieving- "But is a bacteria something real that you can kill with anti-biotics- how can it be psychosomatic!?". He pointed out that most people come into contact with the TB bacteria, but rarely get anything more serious than a cold.

Most of the patients were alcoholics (it was government policy then to hospitalise alcoholics at state expense until the TB was clear-18 months).
Alcohol can kill slowly or suddenly-your choice. A much more dangerous and deadly drug than heroin- and it kills a 1,000 times more people.

Australian Aborigines have a ritual "curse" for people who have committed very serious crimes ( in their culture). It is called "pointing the bone" because at the end of the ceremony a bone is pointed at the accused. The person usually dies within a week or so. It is a death sentence done totally by belief and suggestion.
SEE
Bone pointing@Everything2.com
Aborigines

The psychiatrist who developed the Transactional Analysis way of analysing communication said people often "scripted" their lives and even their death date. " i will die at 61,71 81 101 etc" Ask around at the office watercooler and see how many have a belief like this. " "I don't want to live without you" etc.
Last edited by Michaelangelica; 06-01-2009 at 02:33 AM..
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  #8 (permalink)  
By paigetheoracle on 06-01-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereologist View Post
I would not say we evolve since evolving is a notion attributed to a species and not individuals. I think the term is to become conditioned or tolerant to conditions. I think of callouses as a means of tolerating hard physical conditions.
Yes well think of how body armour of any sort (even mental armouring), designed to protect you, ultimately slows you down and cuts down on perception too: The walls of the prison cell cut down mobility and only leaves small peep holes with which to view the world.
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  #9 (permalink)  
By paigetheoracle on 06-01-2009
Re: Placebo - mind over matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelangelica View Post
So a meta-analysis of all the research on the herb (if there is any) will show that the herb is infective when it may be effective in particular situations/disease states.

Belief is the key here in my opnion - see also below

On your workmate with cancer
I had a friend/ work colleague some many years ago who was diagnosed with cancer. She was very disciplined and determined to beat the cancer. The Doc. eventually said " OK see me every 6 months', then every year, the every 2 years, then every three etc-- you get the picture.

Again, the determination not to be beat by the disease

Sometimes i wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?

You don't hold your punches do you? My belief too as with my posts on your Depression thread recently (Little death or mental/ spiritual death i.e. giving up effort and accepting defeat).

i worked with a psychiatrist in a Tuberculosis ward a long time ago as a young psychiatric nurse in training. He said TB was a psychosomatic disease. We all howled him down disbelieving- "But is a bacteria something real that you can kill with anti-biotics- how can it be psychosomatic!?". He pointed out that most people come into contact with the TB bacteria, but rarely get anything more serious than a cold.

Excellent point! This goes back to me saying that it's the attention that the sick get that makes them well, not the medicine i.e. showing you 'care' whether they live or die/ are not well or coping with life.

Most of the patients were alcoholics (it was government policy then to hospitalise alcoholics at state expense until the TB was clear-18 months).
Alcohol can kill slowly or suddenly-your choice. A much more dangerous and deadly drug than heroin- and it kills a 1,000 times more people.

Interesting that alcohol is a 'depressive', not so?

Australian Aborigines have a ritual "curse" for people who have committed very serious crimes ( in their culture). It is called "pointing the bone" because at the end of the ceremony a bone is pointed at the accused. The person usually dies within a week or so. It is a death sentence done totally by belief and suggestion.

Again belief and ostracism: See 'The Four Pillars of Healing by Dr Leo Galland, which in the chapter in 'relationships', states that people live longer and stay healthier in a community that supports them, rather than ignores them or treats them with hostility

The psychiatrist who developed the Transactional Analysis way of analysing communication said people often "scripted" their lives and even their death date. " i will die at 61,71 81 101 etc" Ask around at the office watercooler and see how many have a belief like this. " "I don't want to live without you" etc.
Read the book

Will follow up the suggestions for my colleague but I suspect it might be he's accepted the death wish and is unreachable (suicidal) because of this: Been here before and it's a sad waste of life but not mine to chose
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