Questions...

[techhowse]

Some Questions About Hydrogen...

ok, these might sound like silly Q's. But i'd rather be a fool for 5 mins than forever.
I might sound naive but who cares, here it goes:

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

ps. one doesn't have to answer all of the questions in 1 hit if need be (would be great if one can do so). A response to one or two of any three is acceptable.

[infamous]

Originally Posted by techhowse

Some Questions About Hydrogen...

ok, these might sound like silly Q's. But i'd rather be a fool for 5 mins than forever.
I might sound naive but who cares, here it goes:

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

The use of coal and oil is by far the cheapest form of energy we have available at the present.

Originally Posted by techhowse

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

Hydrogen is not really that cheap to produce. To isolate it from water by the process of electrolisis takes a considerable amount of electric current. Where do we get this electricity if not from fossil fuels or nuclear energy?

Originally Posted by techhowse

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

I'm sure they would resist any attempt to be taken out of the equation. However, at present they are holding all the cards and I don't think that state of affairs will change too much in the near future.

BTW; Welcom to Hypography, I hope you'll enjoy all the discussion and we all look forward to also hearing your points of view.

[UncleAl]

Thermodynamics. Chemical and Engineering News 83(34) 42 (2005) "Filling up with hydrogen" (22 August 2005)

An eldritch hydrogen storage modality holds 53 moles H2/liter at ambient conditions with 36 MJ/liter recoverable energy overall. Compare with 8 MJ/liter for cryogenic liquid H2 (C&EN published value). DOE's 2010 automotive requirement is 45 kg H2/m^3 storage. This modality achieves more than 100 kg H2/m^3 in 2005.

No storage degradation or generated waste occurs in its 100% recycle during a decade of daily use. National distribution networks are in place. Compatible engines are in commercial production. After you drain your tank of diesel fuel you can refill it within minutes.

[UncleAl]

1. Why can't we all switch from coal-oil to alternative power fairly soon?

You cannot mine alternative energy. You cannot make petrochemicals from alternative energy. Area necessary to generate 1 GW electrical, theoretical minimum,

Area, mi^2 Modality
=============
1000 biomass
300 wind
60 solar
0.3 nuclear

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...hanol.hrs.html

Prof. David Pimentel of Cornell University calculated energy consumed in growing corn, processing the grain, and distilling ethanol versus the energy generated by its combustion. It requires 131,000 British thermal units (Btus) to produce one gallon of ethanol, which yields 77,000 Btus of fuel energy. That's a 70% net energy *loss.* The federal government paid tens of $billions of tax credits and subsidies to ethanol producers like agri-giant Archer-Daniels-Midland.

Photosynthesis is very optimistically equivalent to producing 15 bbl/day-mile^2 of diesel fuel while ignoring all energy inputs.

2. If hydrogen is cheap, why isn't it currently widely used in automobiles?

Hydrogen is the most expensive component in a refinery - the cheapest source of hydrogen. There is no national distribution modality for hdyrogen. There is no tankage that safely holds a usable amount for a mobile engine.

Chemical & Engineering News 83(34) 42 (2005) "Filling up with hydrogen"

An eldritch hydrogen storage modality holds 53 moles H2/liter at ambient conditions with 36 megajoules/liter recoverable energy overall. Compare with 8 MJ/liter for cryogenic liquid H2. DOE's 2010 requirement is 45 kg H2/m^3 storage. This modality achieves more than 100 kg H2/m^3 in 2005.

No storage degradation or generated waste occurs in its 100% recycle during a decade of daily use. National distribution networks are in place. Compatible engines are in commercial production. After you drain your tank of diesel fuel you can refill it within minutes.

3. What if there was no longer a need for fuel providers. In other words, how would the authorities/fuel companies react if we all could be self sufficient, energy usage wise incl. domestic usage (energy at home) and automobile?

Do you have any idea how much energy the US uses/year? It has held reasonably steady at 60 bbl oil equiv/capita. 1 boe = 1700 kWhr-thermal. There are 290 million US folk or

1.74x10^10 boe/year, or
2.96x10^13 kWhr-thermal/year, or
1.065x10^20 joules/year, or

the equivalent of 1.2 metric tonnes of matter 100% converted into energy, E=mc^2. There's a whole lot of stuff burned to get that energy out. A nuclear megatonne is 46.51 grams of matter converted to energy. GRAMS. Are ya gonna alternatively burn algae, git, or catch wind?

Enviro-whinerism: Expensive, shoddy, deadly. THEY LIED TO YOU, and you swallowed it whole,

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep602/lecture4.html

"Shut up and calculate," Richard Feynman when asked to comment on the meaning of quantum mechanics.

[Dark Mind]

Isn't the remaining world supply of accessible fossil fuel supposed to run out around 2025?

Just what I've heard ...

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Dark Mind

Isn't the remaining world supply of accessible fossil fuel supposed to run out around 2025?

Just what I've heard ...

From where? Facts, please.

[Dark Mind]

I'll look into it right away, sir!

How foolish of me to just post something that "I just heard"...

Idiot! Idiot! Idiot!

Just kidding . But I'll seriously see if I can find a source .

[Dark Mind]

Originally Posted by Hubbert peak

Conservative predictions are that conventional oil production will peak in 2007. There are many other predictions, one example is that the world conventional oil production will peak somewhere between 2020 and 2050, but that the output is likely to increase at a substantially slower rate after 2020 (Greene, 2003). Another recent study predicts the peak to somewhere between 2004 and 2037 [14]. Both the IAE and the EIA project that conventional oil production will continue to increase until at least 2025-2030.

Voila!

Hubbert Peak

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Dark Mind

Voila!

Hubbert Peak

Good work. Did you also read the twenty (or so) criticisms at the bottom of that page?

Like this one...
http://www.gasresources.net/Lynch(Hubbert-Deffeyes).htm

[Dark Mind]

Yep . But I found a location I might have heard it at .