Perpetual motion

[brianthepoet]

On a planet where almost every bit of energy produced is done so by chemical means, and everyone believes the availability of energy to be finite, how can people overlook the conservation of energy laws - did we not once use the prevailing wind to sail ships around the world? And does not the permanence of a string of energy allow us to believe in perpetual motion. My mother-in-law's constantly moving jaw, for example.
Seriously, motion IS perpetual, once begun, other forces acting on it being the only limit.


























Vertigo makes the world go round (brianthepoet)

[adjective]

Originally Posted by Guadalupe

Curious, Newton’s 1st Law of Motion suggests to be Infinite (with no beginning and no end). But the word Perpetual, by definition, suggests to be Finite (to have a beginning, a ground state, a point of origin, etc). Is this correct?

Incorrect. Infinite basically means that no value can be assigned to it--it is too large. This does not necessitate that it has no beginning. Think of a number line. Now pick any point x. From that point, x can increase without bound to infinity. Finite suggests that a value can be assigned. That is, x can increase to y and y - x == some number z. There is a beginning and an end.

This is a gross simplification of mathematical manifestations of infinite and finite quantities, but it gives a general idea.

[Guadalupe]

Originally Posted by brianthepoet

On a planet where almost every bit of energy produced is done so by chemical means, and everyone believes the availability of energy to be finite, how can people overlook the conservation of energy laws - did we not once use the prevailing wind to sail ships around the world? And does not the permanence of a string of energy allow us to believe in perpetual motion. My mother-in-law's constantly moving jaw, for example.
Seriously, motion IS perpetual, once begun, other forces acting on it being the only limit.
(brianthepoet)

I'm very curious to know brianthepoet. When you say, "motion is perpetual, once begun, other forces acting on it being the only limit." Does this mean that an object can only be in a perpetual state only when it's set in motion?

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by Guadalupe

I'm very curious to know brianthepoet. When you say, "motion is perpetual, once begun, other forces acting on it being the only limit." Does this mean that an object can only be in a perpetual state only when it's set in motion?

No, a body at rest remains at rest until acted on by an outside force. See Inertia.

[Guadalupe]

Originally Posted by adjective

Incorrect. Infinite basically means that no value can be assigned to it--it is too large. This does not necessitate that it has no beginning. Think of a number line. Now pick any point x. From that point, x can increase without bound to infinity. Finite suggests that a value can be assigned. That is, x can increase to y and y - x == some number z. There is a beginning and an end.

This is a gross simplification of mathematical manifestations of infinite and finite quantities, but it gives a general idea.

Thanks Adjective for the math but, I was really looking for was more in a literary sense. Can you help?

[Guadalupe]

Originally Posted by C1ay

No, a body at rest remains at rest until acted on by an outside force. See Inertia.

Thanks C1ay for the 411 but, was brianthepoet use of the word "Perpetual", as Infinite or Finite?

[adjective]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "literary sense." Merriam-Webster online defines infinity as:

1 a : the quality of being infinite b : unlimited extent of time, space, or quantity : BOUNDLESSNESS
2 : an indefinitely great number or amount <an infinity of stars>
(Source: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...finity&x=0&y=0)

There are additional definitions. Check the link. None of them, however, necessitate that infinity have no beginning.

I can think of some manifestations of infinity in the realm of literary theory and literature, but these are either similar principles as I've previously discussed or dismal misinterpretations. Derrida's notion of differance, for example, relies on an infinite regression of meaning (i.e. words are defined by words which are defined by words, etc.). There are a finite set of words but, Derrida argues, this deferring continues infinitely. This is about analogous "finite yet unbounded"--which I believe someone mentioned previously.

These have no real impact on reality, however, and should probably be ignored. Mathematics has shown vastly more successful at describing reality than postmodern drivel.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by Guadalupe

Thanks C1ay for the 411 but, was brianthepoet use of the word "Perpetual", as Infinite or Finite?

From Oxford:
perpetual /prpetyool/ • adjective
1 never ending or changing.
2 occurring repeatedly; seemingly continual.

From Dictionary.com:
per·pet·u·al Pronunciation Key (pr-pch-l) adj.
1. Lasting for eternity.
2. Continuing or lasting for an indefinitely long time.
3. Instituted to be in effect or have tenure for an unlimited duration: a treaty of perpetual friendship.
4. Continuing without interruption. See Synonyms at continual.
5. Flowering throughout the growing season.

From Webster:
per·pet·u·al
Pronunciation: p&r-'pe-ch&-w&l, -ch&l; -'pech-w&l
Function: adjective
1 a : continuing forever : EVERLASTING b (1) : valid for all time (2) : holding (as an office) for life or for an unlimited time
2 : occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued
3 : blooming continuously throughout the season


It looks to me that infinite is implied....

[Guadalupe]

Originally Posted by C1ay

From Oxford:
perpetual /prpetyool/ • adjective
1 never ending or changing.
2 occurring repeatedly; seemingly continual.

From Dictionary.com:
per·pet·u·al Pronunciation Key (pr-pch-l) adj.
1. Lasting for eternity.
2. Continuing or lasting for an indefinitely long time.
3. Instituted to be in effect or have tenure for an unlimited duration: a treaty of perpetual friendship.
4. Continuing without interruption. See Synonyms at continual.
5. Flowering throughout the growing season.

From Webster:
per·pet·u·al
Pronunciation: p&r-'pe-ch&-w&l, -ch&l; -'pech-w&l
Function: adjective
1 a : continuing forever : EVERLASTING b (1) : valid for all time (2) : holding (as an office) for life or for an unlimited time
2 : occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued
3 : blooming continuously throughout the season


It looks to me that infinite is implied....

Thanks you C1ay. I too felt that it was used that way. For a long time I didn't quite understand whether perpetual motion machines have always being in existence or where they created from the foundation up. (Manufactured). Infinite or Finite. To be one or the other makes a big difference. Is this correct?

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by Guadalupe

Thanks you C1ay. I too felt that it was used that way. For a long time I didn't quite understand whether perpetual motion machines have always being in existence or where they created from the foundation up. (Manufactured). Infinite or Finite. To be one or the other makes a big difference. Is this correct?

I don't think it's a big difference. No perpetual motion machines exist now so none could have already been running indefinitely. If someone built one it would have a starting point, but run indefinitely by definition. OTOH, it's kind of silly to talk about it since thermodynamics rules out such machines anyhow.