Perpetual motion

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin
Some very imformative replies and links, thanks to all. My concept is slightly different, so I'll just have to build it, sell the patent rights for a trillion dollars and serve up some humble pie to all of you skeptics at the Hypography convention. Phew,...I'd better get busy.

You recently revealed you have a cook for a son. Better learn some tricks of the trade before next year, pal! The kitchen's all yours. Even if you don't make it with your trillion dollar patent. If it works, I want in on it of course.

[Bo]

just wondering: how are things going with your perpetuum mobile?
(also i was wondering what your idea exactly was; but you don't seem eager to tell us )
Bo

[Uncle Martin]

I think perpetuum IMmobile may be a better term. The further I get with the design stage the less likely the concept appears. If I should continue and build it, I will post a picture. I would prefer to keep the design private for now,.... just in case it does work.

[IrishEyes]

oooooooh, Unc... you and your secrets... I can't wait to meet you to see if you have fog and spiders hanging off your back to go with the air of mystery that you drape yourself in... Seriously though, I can hardly wait to see what you're cooking up!

[Tormod]

It's probably a neverending cigar band.

[Freethinker]

Aren't they all?

[thoughts]

Here is a thought. A disk with tracks around the edge where a ball can roll around the disk. Have the disk set on two pivits one on each underside of the disk so the disk can rock slightly back and forth. Have two magnets on the underside of each side of the disk and two magnets in oposing force on the table the disk is mounted to. This way if you rocked the disk slightly with your hand it would return to balance as the magnets forced it to. Then set the ball rolling on the track. It would roll to a side and tilt it slightly then the magnetic force would try to push the disk back in balance giving the ball a little push then it rolls to the other side and repeats.

[Uncle Martin]

Welcome to our forum Thoughts,

Darned good user name. These are some good ideas that you bring to the table,... I will consider them in depth. Just in case you have not read the entire thread,... it has been pointed out that perpetual motion is not physically possible,... and the use of "permanent" magnets does not truly qualify. I now view the magnets more as a magnetic battery,..... only storing energy. I have not given up on the remote possibility of proving everyone wrong,..... but I have changed my approach. I am very pleased to have some new "thoughts" on the subject.

Thanks for joining in the discussion.

[Freethinker]

Hi Thoughts, welcome to our community. I hope you will share more of your thoughts with us.

Let me see if I can help evaluate your idea here.

Originally posted by: thoughts
...Then set the ball rolling on the track. It would roll to a side and tilt it slightly then the magnetic force would try to push the disk back in balance giving the ball a little push then it rolls to the other side and repeats.

First, as Unc has mentioned, in terms of "perpetual" magnets are temporary storage devices. They consist of materials in which the magnetic domains of the molecules are aligned. The magnetic domains of these molecules will tend to "un-align" themselves over time.

But the biggest problem I see is with the assumption that the balance between the weight of the ball and the strength of the magnets is variable.

If the ball is heavier than the magentic repulsion, then it will push the disk below the level balance point on one side and the ball will find a point of rest.

If the weight of the ball is less than the magnetic repulsion then the disk will not drop below level and the ball will circle until it loses momentum to friction.

Your design would be the same if springs replaced the magnets. The interaction would be identical.

What you are hoping for is a system that will give a "kick" to the ball's momentum by allowing a greater deformation of the system's balance (drop below level) than the ball can achieve itself and/ or the magnets will provide more after the fact repulsive force than initial repulsive force.

At best your system will work like any resonant system. With a good ratio between the ball's mass and the magnetic system's strength you will create an oscillation for the system which will allow for efficient motion of the system. But as with any resonant system, internal resistances (friction the ball and disc encounters ...) will slowely wind the system down. And an external energy source will be required occasionally to replace the lost energy.

These exercises are fun and always good mental exercise.

Thanks.

[BEAKER]

Perpetual Motion is a misnomer.

The people who are seeking such a thing in the real world are after something that can deliver usefull energy in a legitimate and tangible way.

We can all see that of course useable fuel of every kind will will eventually be used up as far as we mere mortals are concerned if the universe continues in it's present condition long enough; and assuming the laws of thermodynamics are as immutable as the scientific guru's of our generation have staked their reputations on they're being.

But are there indeed sources of useable energy that we simply have not discvered?- yet.

Perpetual motion does of course exist as is evident in everything from the neuclear to the planetary orbits, and we are reaping the benefits in more ways than most people ever consider - and will cotinue to enjoy them as long as the universe continues in it's present condition which is far from eternally perpetual.

What the seekers of perpetual motion want to find is something that can supply useable energy to power all of our human toys that will not be exhausted for as long as we are here (without turning our front yard into a radioactive wasteland).

Are magnets the answer?

BEAKER