Will the decline in Christianity result in the demise of civilisation?

[arthur]

(Will the decline in Christianity result in the demise of civilisation?)




Hi, 60 + years ago I developed the following deceptively simple proposition which I am presenting here in the hope that, on the basis of understanding it, it will receive a just and honest, unbiased and rational consideration as to its merits, primarily, in regards to offering an explanation of the importance of "Christian" related religions to the development of, and to the survival of 'this sophisticated civilised society.

*It is not part of a religious debate. It has nothing to do with the veracity of The Bible, of God, of ones religious convictions or of Christianity per se*

The basis of the proposition is that this Sophisticated Civilised society exists only because of Roman Catholicism and Christianity and that Roman Catholicism and Christianity permeates, directly or indirectly, virtually every aspect of this Sophisticated Civilised society to the extent that the "religions" and society are so intertwined as to be inseparable.

The full understanding of this proposition will give one the key to answering most, if not all, of the philosophical questions of the day.

For something like 1500 years Roman Catholicism's domination, control and influence in European centres of power, which came out of the 'unification' of the hundreds of squabbling and fighting principalities, maintained an element of order (believe it or not) in Europe.

Over time, the part of Roman Catholicism's doctrine, which included the history of the Jews, namely the Ten Commandments, became incorporated into the Laws of most of the countries of Europe.

Partly due to England's break from Rome and in Germany, Martin Luther's Protestantism, and with the gradual sophistication of societies, the basics of the Ten Commandments eventually became an integral element in defining the justice of the Law's of the "Christianised" countries and eventually became the essence of 'The Laws of the land'/s which eventually became accepted by the proletariat, i.e. you and I, as being the norm. It is the laws emanating from Moses stone tablets via the religion of Roman Catholicism and via the tenets of Christianity and the concepts of Protestantism which has influenced you and I to be what we are. It is having grown up in an atmosphere of security and protection of benevolent laws which allows one the freedom to, within the bounds of, for example, decency and morality, to say what we want and to do what we want, it is the universal acceptance of these laws which has influenced us to expect from our neighbours the kind of decent and polite treatment that they would expect from us.


It is because we developed and grew up in this environment where the laws, the kind of morality, that have given us our concept of right and wrong, of honesty and dishonesty, etc which has allowed us, that is you and me as well as other people to evolve a psychological dependency on an expectation of us having a future, etcetera, etcetera.
I am sure that any reasonably intelligent person could extrapolate for themselves the importance of and the impact that Christianity has had on, directly and indirectly, developing moral or ethical values that they them selves might have. I am also sure that any reasonably intelligent person could not recognise that there is nobody unaffected by the influences of Christianity and its effects.

Consider what it is that has held the (westernised) Sophisticated "Christian" Civilised Societies that 'we' are all a part of together. Consider firstly from your own personal perspective the characteristic of you expecting others to adhere to the basic laws and the rules and values which have evolved out of the basic tenets of "Christianity". The laws, rules and taboos which have been the bonding meme of the society of tens of millions of free thinking individuals. The laws and rules that you have never really questioned, the ones that you have absorbed and which have become an integral part of your being, from being that young child and screaming "But that’s not fair" to the maturity of becoming spontaneously distressed by the evil or immoral activity of others who do not respect the same values.

Now, and here is the nub, consider that we all, you, me and every person who we know and every person who we have ever known or met and every person who we have ever seen, and, every person who we have ever heard of and every person who lives or has lived in a Sophisticated Civilised Society; AND, Everything that you or I and any of these other people have ever done, thought, wanted or owned as well as every judgement and decision that you, I or they have ever made has been, or is, directly or indirectly influenced by or is the product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact. It is because of these tenets that, Sophisticated Civilised Society exists. It is because of them that you, me and anyone else, whether you or I or they are clever or thick, intellectual or not, has the freedom to pander to their or our expectations of and enjoy the freedom, the security and protection that the society affords, irrespective of any contribution that any of us has made to it.

Denouncing the existence of the Christian/Judaic God by people, who claim an intellectual prowess, on the grounds that there is no proof of its existence is pretty bizarre when one considers that the proof of almost anything they claim to believe, unless they are very very old, will only be supported by the equivalent of 'science' journal snippets and hearsay and not by any physical fundamental research by themselves. (This to me begs the question of their intellectuality)
Surely I can't be the only one to cringe with embarrassment for them when I do hear or read misguided and false claims and premises which indicate a complete lack of understanding, not only of the history of the religion but more importantly, of its importance and role in the evolution of Mankind including them selves. This also includes the evolution of "science" as a academic discipline, given that for a thousand + years the worlds centres of academia, philosophy, science and record keeping were directly related to religious patronage of religious people in religious schools, colleges and universities.

My regards..arthur...

[Moontanman]

I disagree absolutely with your contention that the rise of civilization was due to Christianity. Christianity did much to hold back science and civilization in the beginning for more than a thousand years. Morality is not derived from Christianity or religion in general as has been discussed many times in these forums. The general decline in the power of Christianity and religions in general has been accompanied by an increase in both science and civilization. Science contributes much more to civilization than any religion. I see a decline of Christianity, as long as it's accompanied by a similar decline in religions in general, will increase civilization to the betterment of all humans every where.

BTW, you have totally violated the premise of your post as stated here

*It is not part of a religious debate. It has nothing to do with the veracity of The Bible, of God, of ones religious convictions or of Christianity per se*

Your post is nothing but about your religious convictions.

[Zythryn]

The basis of the proposition is that this Sophisticated Civilised society exists only because of Roman Catholicism and Christianity

For an unbiased discussion on the merits of your hypothesis, I think you first need to support your original observasion.
I believe that statement is false.
Certainly Christianity has had great affect upon society. But there are areas which developed laws and technology and other advances without any history of Christianity.
As for the source of laws and morals, I believe mine come from the 'golden rule' which came about long before Christianity used it.

[Moontanman]

China seems to have done quite well in the civilization department without Christianity well before Christianity. I see no basis for your claims but I do see a lot of proselytizing.

[UncleAl]

1) Dark Ages - If only the One True Church had devoted a bigger budget and more time to return Christ to Earth.
2) Protestant Reformation then the Industrial Revolution, rise of capitalism - No popery!
3) Manhattan Project. More than 1/3 of Nobel Laureates since 1900 are Jewish.

The Church of Rome is virulently anti-science; brutal, vicious, and lethal; and obscene. The Trinity's dominion is poverty, hunger, disease, filth, death, and silk-clad priests with whips. Test of faith! If you want progress, if you want technological civilization have WASPs mildy oppress secular Jews.

Tommy Aquinas proved the existence of god five ways. Baruch Spinoza killed god. Spinoza had a day job grinding lenses. He didn't need to kiss grant funding butt.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by arthur

(Will the decline in Christianity result in the demise of civilisation?)
Hi, 60 + years ago I developed the following deceptively simple proposition which I am presenting here in the hope that ...

Blah Blah Blah Blah ...

My regards..arthur...

Good Grief! What a long winded sales pitch on your personal beliefs there. Carl Sagan said it best when he said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." and there's nothing in your extraordinary blathering that supports or proves your extraordinary claims. Maybe you can find someone interested in them here.

[Buffy]

So if I read your caveats to Judaism correctly, you're saying that if Christianity went away but we still had Judaism that society would be okay?

Cool!

If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also way out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmity of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind,
Buffy

[arthur]

Buffy who was responsible for putting my post under 'silly claims' and how can I go about have it moved.

All that it needs to show how un-silly the claim is, is for it to be read carefully with out religious prejudice, objectively, and with good will. I have no religious affiliations and I am not a bigot. I am astounded by the amount of religious prejudice and bigotry displayed by people who almost certainly have experienced Christian good will by people who have been influenced by Christianity to become doctors and nurses, aid workers, home and abroad virtually every do good organisations in the 'western world' are run by volunteer Christians, hospitals, clinics, Aid's, drugs, drink, home less-ness, marriage guidance, orphanages, youth centres, sports clubs, hostels for battered wives, wayward children, free food 'kitchens' and family free food distribution centres, the enormous number of educators of children were trained, as were many doctors, social workers in Christian colleges built run and financed by Christian donations and churches it goes on and on and on.

If you or anyone is still in doubt just consider the influences that resulted in ethos of the UN and WHO and other global organisations, and if you or any one is still in doubt as to the influences of Christianity consider the influences of Easter and Christmas present production on global fiscal distribution in, for example China and the far east who manufactures more that ¾ the worlds 2007's Christian religious festivals presents.and it goes on and on and on.

One does not have to like some thing to recognise its important. All that is needed to understand my proposition is the display of common decency of treating me with, at least, the respect that I expected from this forum as in my request for *just and honest, sensible, unbiased and rational consideration as to its merits.* Not for one moment did I expect a display of stupidity and bigotry and at no point did I expect that it would be put into a 'silly claims forum' by some one who couldn't either be bothered to read or to try to understand what I wrote.
*It is not part of a religious debate. It has nothing to do with the veracity of The Bible, of God, of ones religious convictions or of Christianity per se*
..arthur..

[arthur]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

For an unbiased discussion on the merits of your hypothesis, I think you first need to support your original observasion.
I believe that statement is false.
Certainly Christianity has had great affect upon society. But there are areas which developed laws and technology and other advances without any history of Christianity.
As for the source of laws and morals, I believe mine come from the 'golden rule' which came about long before Christianity used it.

what statement???


..arthur..

[arthur]

[QUOTE=Buffy;280383]So if I read your caveats to Judaism correctly, you're saying that if Christianity went away but we still had Judaism that society would be okay?[QUOTE]

where are the caveats????

...arthur...