Defending Democracy

[nutronjon]

One of the most important books ever written is Tocqueville's Democracy in America. He was a French aristocrat, and some of his family was killed during the French Revolution. As a young man, he studied the young democracy of the United States and he wrote of it in glowing terms. Years later, when thought everything through, he concluded his book with an ominous warning of the worst tyranny in history that democracies could become.

If we are ignorant of such matters, we can not defend our democracy with liberty, but become like the Borg, with humans programmed to serve the Borg, and having no human lives of their own. This warning is no longer for the future. It has our present. Democracy in America can be read on-line:

Democracy in America: TOC

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

One of the most important books ever written is Tocqueville's Democracy in America. He was a French aristocrat, and some of his family was killed during the French Revolution. As a young man, he studied the young democracy of the United States and he wrote of it in glowing terms. Years later, when thought everything through, he concluded his book with an ominous warning of the worst tyranny in history that democracies could become.

If we are ignorant of such matters, we can not defend our democracy with liberty, but become like the Borg, with humans programmed to serve the Borg, and having no human lives of their own. This warning is no longer for the future. It has our present. Democracy in America can be read on-line:

Democracy in America you say. A candidate who wins the 11 top electoral states receives 271 electoral votes to win. The rest of the 39 states votes will not count. It is time to elect our president with a direct vote of the people! Too bad the people do not vote!

[HydrogenBond]

Originally, the founding fathers of the US Constitution had the Senators elected or rather appointed by the state assembles. The Senators were suppose to be the voice of the state government, in Washington. The Representatives were elected by the people to be the voice of the people. The electoral college was sort a blend of the two. What they had in mind was a republic and not a democracy, since the people are not informed enough but tend to be easily manipulated by clever rhetoric.

The founding father must have been aware of this, and limited the democracy to the house of representatives. The Senate was then changed and also became driven by the entertainment factor of politics.

If you think of it logically, the state assemblies, are themselves politicians and know the nature of the manipulation, so they would choose senators who could best leverage the most for their state. The popular senate vote goes to personality and mud slinging. The senate that has resulted has turned into something more separated from the states.

The loss of the electoral college would further erode the power of the states. It looks like more democracy on the surface, but a centralized government will reduce the power of the people. They are not beholden to the voter. They can promise anything and not deliver, but the electoral college has a little more leverage making sure the people's voice is heard.

A democracy sounds good, but the herd doesn't think. It waits for someone to tell them what they want to hear so they can get elected. Then they forget the herd. If you look at the promises of the current Democratic majorities, the herd swallowed this hock line and sinker. Once in power, it turned out to be a lot of bull. If the state assemblies had voted for senators, these people know bull, since this is how they got where they got. They would have picked leaders so they could leverage the power. Up front the democracy thinks it got what it wanted, but got nothing. The other way, they appeared to be left out, but in the end they get what they need.

[Mike C]

To All

The key to having our Democracy work as the Constitution mandates is to get the 'dollars' out of the political arena.
You can also get the religious faction out of the political arena.

There is nothing in our CN that says the politicians should represent the wealthy (Latin republic?) or the religious bigots that intimdate the people in any way.

Put 'emphasis' on the CN mandate of 'Separation of Church and State'.
We do not need another Bush (faith doctrine?) in the White House.
His service to our country is the most disastrous in history with the Florida hurricanes, the Gulf hurricane, the floods throughout the US and the forest fires in the west. And, of course, the 9/11 fiasco that got us involved in the Middle East wars. The 'new world order' was the target here.

Besides keeping religion out of the public arena, we have to shut out the dollar faction that buys our politicians and also 'brain washed' them to serve themselves instead of the citizens.
The 'Public Financing of our Elections' would do the job of promoting 'political' reform. That is what is needed to restore our government to do as it is supposed to do.

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Truth is hidden by paradox and confusion.

Does this work for you? The form of government in the US is a republic, however, the culture that was transmitted through education was democratic.

Notice I put that in past tense "was". For the longest time literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics, and this literacy is essential to understanding democracy. In 1958, the National Defense Education Act, put an end to teaching the classics, in favor of education for technology for military and industrial purpose. This probably spells the end of the US democracy, because no one knows the culture, so the culture for democracy with liberty, can not be manifested. Four decades later, after immitating Germany's education for technology for military and industrial purpose, the people voted a leader who believed the New World Order was a good thing. You know, the New World Order that Hitler once lead, and like Germany, the US has engaged in war for economic purpose, and this time is clearly the invader who made the first strike. The people are also welcoming a police state, and killing their liberty.

You express an understanding of democracy being tied into what the US is about, but seem to think it is purely a political thing, rather than understanding it is a culture thing, and that without education for that culture, the US democracy is as perverted as the Republic of Germany was perverted when the Prussians took control of Germany, and turned it into a very strong Military and Industrial Complex. Eisenhower, the president who asked congress to pass the National Defense Education Act, warned us of the dangers of this Military/Industrial Complex. Unfortunately, we took our democracy for granted, and lacked understanding of what made the US different from its enemy, and the importance of education to defending our liberty.

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Mike C

To All

The key to having our Democracy work as the Constitution mandates is to get the 'dollars' out of the political arena.
You can also get the religious faction out of the political arena.

There is nothing in our CN that says the politicians should represent the wealthy (Latin republic?) or the religious bigots that intimdate the people in any way.

Put 'emphasis' on the CN mandate of 'Separation of Church and State'.
We do not need another Bush (faith doctrine?) in the White House.
His service to our country is the most disastrous in history with the Florida hurricanes, the Gulf hurricane, the floods throughout the US and the forest fires in the west. And, of course, the 9/11 fiasco that got us involved in the Middle East wars. The 'new world order' was the target here.

Besides keeping religion out of the public arena, we have to shut out the dollar faction that buys our politicians and also 'brain washed' them to serve themselves instead of the citizens.
The 'Public Financing of our Elections' would do the job of promoting 'political' reform. That is what is needed to restore our government to do as it is supposed to do.

Mike C

I love you. Where is the icon that sends kisses?

The battle cry of the first world war was, "Democracy and autocracy can not co-exist." Problem is, from the beginning of the industrial age, our industry was modeled after England's autocracy. The bible supports autocracy, and especially in the US people are literate in the bible, and not so literate in classics. Education Americanized the classics for public school text, for the purpose of transmitting democratic principles, and modernizing the information of the classics. The point is, autocracy and democracy always co-existed in the US. Are you with me so far? When we passed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we unleashed the powers of autocracy. This may be the final death blow to our democracy.

Autocratic industry lead to the Great Depression. That is, there was a collapse of all industrial economies, that was so severe, people were starving to death, and many families lost everything. In desparation to save the people, Roosevelt and Hoover, worked together to trump autocratic industry with a more powerful autocratic government. At the time, many people thought fascism was the answer to economic trouble. Fascism is private ownership of property and government control of industry. Please, drop your German memory of fascism, and keep in mind, Fascism began in Itally, and did not commit the horrors of Germany. Do not let the horrors of Germany confuse you here. Fascism is government control of privately owned industry, okay? The Clinton administration wanted to take fascism a step further, as Itally did, by replacing unions with one national bureaucracy managing workers. Do I have your attention?

People warned about the dangers of what Roosevelt and Hoover were doing, and by the time we get to Clinton, people think fascism is the horrors committed by Germans, and don't understand it as government control of industry and workers. The fact is, the US now has a fascist economic order. With the huge advancement of government and industry relationships, resulting from the second world war, and the Eisenhower administration, embedding the Military/Industrial Complex into our society, the fascist economic order is well developed. The Republicans have long catered to industry to be the wealthiest political pary, and a while back, the Democratic party followed suit, having Industrial Leaders approve of their candidates, before you and I have any say in who will run for office. Do you know of the Democratic political candidate Kucinch? He was not approved by industry.

So yes, you are right. 'Public Financing of our Elections' is essential to restoring our democracy.

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

I love you. Where is the icon that sends kisses?

The battle cry of the first world war was, "Democracy and autocracy can not co-exist." Problem is, from the beginning of the industrial age, our industry was modeled after England's autocracy. The bible supports autocracy, and especially in the US people are literate in the bible, and not so literate in classics. Education Americanized the classics for public school text, for the purpose of transmitting democratic principles, and modernizing the information of the classics. The point is, autocracy and democracy always co-existed in the US. Are you with me so far? When we passed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we unleashed the powers of autocracy. This may be the final death blow to our democracy.

Autocratic industry lead to the Great Depression. That is, there was a collapse of all industrial economies, that was so severe, people were starving to death, and many families lost everything. In desparation to save the people, Roosevelt and Hoover, worked together to trump autocratic industry with a more powerful autocratic government. At the time, many people thought fascism was the answer to economic trouble. Fascism is private ownership of property and government control of industry. Please, drop your German memory of fascism, and keep in mind, Fascism began in Itally, and did not commit the horrors of Germany. Do not let the horrors of Germany confuse you here. Fascism is government control of privately owned industry, okay? The Clinton administration wanted to take fascism a step further, as Itally did, by replacing unions with one national bureaucracy managing workers. Do I have your attention?

People warned about the dangers of what Roosevelt and Hoover were doing, and by the time we get to Clinton, people think fascism is the horrors committed by Germans, and don't understand it as government control of industry and workers. The fact is, the US now has a fascist economic order. With the huge advancement of government and industry relationships, resulting from the second world war, and the Eisenhower administration, embedding the Military/Industrial Complex into our society, the fascist economic order is well developed. The Republicans have long catered to industry to be the wealthiest political pary, and a while back, the Democratic party followed suit, having Industrial Leaders approve of their candidates, before you and I have any say in who will run for office. Do you know of the Democratic political candidate Kucinch? He was not approved by industry.

So yes, you are right. 'Public Financing of our Elections' is essential to restoring our democracy.

Thank you for your support.
I wrote an article on socialism entitled My Brand of Socialism that could be the future of this counties (US) politics if we can eliminate the corruptive influence of the wealthy dollars that control our government.

The only solution now is the above PFoOE.
When you look to the bibles NT, both John the Baptist and Christ had shortened lives. John died in prison and Christ was crucified.
They both opposed the mentality of chauvinism that the establishment Jews promoted and exhibited in the OT.

So this is a problem that our country faces. The influece of these wealthy dollars.

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Mike C

Thank you for your support.
I wrote an article on socialism entitled My Brand of Socialism that could be the future of this counties (US) politics if we can eliminate the corruptive influence of the wealthy dollars that control our government.

The only solution now is the above PFoOE.
When you look to the bibles NT, both John the Baptist and Christ had shortened lives. John died in prison and Christ was crucified.
They both opposed the mentality of chauvinism that the establishment Jews promoted and exhibited in the OT.

So this is a problem that our country faces. The influece of these wealthy dollars.

Mike C

How about this? educate everyone to understand democracy. There are some things we just do not do, because social pressure prevents us from doing them, such as picking our noses in front of everyone. Liberty is maintained, not through a police force, but social pressure to stay within boundries. Culture is much effective in preventing crime than laws, just look at Enron and banking and all the industrial and political corruption we have today. No one today knows, we defend our libery by making good judgements, not by invading others with a very expensive military force.

Check out Deming because he developed the democratic model for industry, and if our industry followed the democratic order, we would all have greater opportunity, and greater personal power. Our democracy would be much stronger than it is today. At the city level, if cities reserved their business space and their industrial zones for those who us the democratic model, and also mandated schools to teach democratic principles, we would have a strong democracy.

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

How about this? educate everyone to understand democracy. There are some things we just do not do, because social pressure prevents us from doing them, such as picking our noses in front of everyone. Liberty is maintained, not through a police force, but social pressure to stay within boundries. Culture is much effective in preventing crime than laws, just look at Enron and banking and all the industrial and political corruption we have today. No one today knows, we defend our libery by making good judgements, not by invading others with a very expensive military force.

Check out Deming because he developed the democratic model for industry, and if our industry followed the democratic order, we would all have greater opportunity, and greater personal power. Our democracy would be much stronger than it is today. At the city level, if cities reserved their business space and their industrial zones for those who us the democratic model, and also mandated schools to teach democratic principles, we would have a strong democracy.

Education, in itself, would not be the solution to the 'job' problem.
Most jobs do not require the advanced education except the three basics of reading, writing and arithmatic.
What we need is to guarantee jobs for all
This gives us all security for survival.
It wouls also reduce the crime problem and other such problems resulting from unemployment.

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Mike C

Education, in itself, would not be the solution to the 'job' problem.
Most jobs do not require the advanced education except the three basics of reading, writing and arithmatic.
What we need is to guarantee jobs for all
This gives us all security for survival.
It wouls also reduce the crime problem and other such problems resulting from unemployment.

Mike C

Before the child labor laws, that is exactly what industry said. These people believed the best way to keep social order was to keep working. Is was normal for people, including children to work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. I don't think this would give people desirable lives. I am glad we established child labor laws, designed to enable children to go to school. We settled for schooling children except in the summer when they were needed for farm work. I don't think any other country holds children out of school so they can work the farms.

I remember when we thought women should be full time homemakers. They saved our nation a bunch of money as they cared for the young, old, and sick, without pay. At this time we thought the strength of our nation, and our liberty, depended on strong families. There is a lot to be said about this. Do you want to discuss what strong families have to do with a strong country and liberty? When you say everyone should be working, do you include being a homemaker as working?