The Evolution of Education

[IrishEyes]

I was wondering what the general concensus is on the state of public education in the US. If you live in another country, please feel free to share your views of your own situation. I have read a number of posts from this site, and others, that speak of what is wrong with our societies, governments, etc. My personal belief is that many things could be improved if education became a priority, not just for politicians but also for parents. What is wrong with public education? What is wrong with the voucher idea? Why is homeschooling wrong, or is it? Who gets to decide what our next generation should know, and by what age, and WHY? What types of sciences should every child have to learn, and why? Should there be a national standard for educational goals in this country?
Also, if this question would be better suited to another topic, please feel free to offer your suggestions.

[Freethinker]

My first suggestion is to read a short book:

American Inquisitors Walter Lippmann

Walter Lippman's take on the doings at Dayton (originally published in 1928). Contains a Socratic Dialog dialogue between Thomas Jefferson, William Jennings Bryan, and Socrates that is so good!

[IrishEyes]

Thanks, Freethinker, i will check out your book suggestion. I appreciate any chance to read a new and different point of view on things, and i LOVE those types of dialogues! However, my question still stands. I don't just want to read a book, I want YOUR view. I want everybody's view on this. I homeschool my children, and i constantly struggle with what to expect from them according to society's views of what is necessary to be considered 'educated'. They read Plato, and know their scientific method (ok, I used ICSTARS for the little ones, but it was an introduction for them!), we've discussed evolution (I actually used some of your arguments for this, Freethinker), they are learning a foreign language, their dad is teaching them LINUX, but these are things that are important to US, not the U.S.
I know what I have used from my past experiences in education. I know how many times I've 'solved for x' and why that is practical; how often I've used polynomials in daily life (rarely, I admit); and when I've needed to know what 'speciation' and 'abiogenesis' are (used more in the last 10 days than 10 years!). I know what my specific state requires that I 'teach' them, and that other states have different requirements. Why is that? I understand that states are in charge of their own educational systems, and that the federal gov't doesn't control that, but WHY? And i'm asking for the realistic WHY, not the Constitutional legalities behind federally legislating educational requirements. I mean, moving from one state to another is as bad as moving to another country in some cases. Why is there no accepted standard? And if there should be one, WHO should be able to make it?
Anyhow, I'm off to Borders to try to find American Inquisitors , and I'll let you know what I think in a few days. Thanks for the suggestion.

[IrishEyes]

Alas, no luck at any of the big book barns. But i did find a copy online, and it'll be here in a week or so. i'll let you know what i think when i read it, but would still appreciate your thoughts on the rest.
thanks!!!

[rileyj]

"I was wondering what the general concensus is on the state of public education in the US."

overall it needs work

"What is wrong with public education?"

one thing is that public school teach the basics, they feel that most of the children will be middle class blue collar people so thats what they get them ready for. iwent to public school and a private broading school. the biggest difference is smaller class rooms which is a must. small means easier to teach and understand matieral, less amount of kids to watch so less of a chance they fool around, in public school i noticed all the kids just fooled around, talked didnt pay attention. and private complete 180. and it wasn't the kids it was the evironent. i think
every classroom should have a camrea in it, not for the kids but to watch the teachers.

" What is wrong with the voucher idea?"

what is that? heard of it before but vague what it is.

Why is homeschooling wrong, or is it?

depends on the parent, if the public school had high standards and good teachers than, they should go to school. in school you have a teacher for every subject, that means you have person who teaches the material many times a day for many years (hopefully). that means you kid is being taught each subject by profeesional in that area. which is going to be better than 1 or 2 parents teaching everything.

" Who gets to decide what our next generation should know, and by what age, and WHY? "

math, science , history , art , music, government (depending on where you live). i'm sure there are others but you get the point. i say government not so people can be basis against other governments but so they can learn to live in and change their own. age should only factor when determining what they are capiable of fully understanding. sex ed is a tough one. i think in middle school, thats when those hormones get going. any early the parents need to do it themselves (which should be done anyway). why? well because weather by god or not our mind is the tool giving to us that is our greatest strength, it is the one thing we need to make sure grows.

What types of sciences should every child have to learn, and why?

science is very important, it allows us to understand our world and the universe. of course only things that can be proven should be taught and if it is unknown what is right all views ahould be looked at and taught.

Should there be a national standard for educational goals in this country?

of course

[geko]

The education system teaches conformity in my opinion. This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children - albeit you can do it as well, but the bulk is given to them in the form of curriculums. Everybody learns relatively the same thing because if they didnt they would become individuals and freethinkers. This cant be allowed because it equals power.

Just thought i'd share my pro-individualistic, 'freedom-loving' stance will the lot 'o ya......... i thought it suited the thread

[IrishEyes]

This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children - albeit you can do it as well, but the bulk is given to them in the form of curriculums. Everybody learns relatively the same thing because if they didnt they would become individuals and freethinkers. This cant be allowed because it equals power.

I totally agree with this! Except I'm not sure what you mean by This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children . I have my children out of the public 'education' system, and we don't use a 'standard' c'ric. Actually, we are considered "unschoolers" by most everyone we know, and it doesn't always go over well with the grandparents. And I DO agree that knowledge = POWER (sounds like an old Saturday morning sing-along, huh?).

Freethinker, I read a post of yours on another thread talking about vouchers and why they were wrong, but forgot the gist of your argument. Care to share it again? Also, are you a Liberatarian?

rileyj, thanks for your insights! I've never been sent away to Boarding School, and it sounds very expensive. I do think that higher education should be available to everyone, but that's probably never going to happen.

[IrishEyes]

" What is wrong with the voucher idea?"

what is that? heard of it before but vague what it is.

There are many people that support a 'school voucher' program. Basically, parents would get to choose whether to send their children to the local public school, or to receive a 'voucher' from the government to help pay tuition at a private school. There are some cities in the US that have already had 'success' with pilot programs involving vouchers.

Generally speaking, Republicans are FOR vouchers, and Democrats are against vouchers. It sounds like a grand idea on the surface, especially to low-income families in poor areas that could never realistically afford private school. It's a way for them to get their kids out of really bad public schools. Sounds great, right? The catch is that the voucher money comes out of the public school budget.

Currently in my state, for every school-age child that lives in a school district, the district receives money from the governement to educate said child. Here, the school even gets the money, or at least a big part of it, if the child does not attend the public school, such as my homeschooled children. The school district is making money off of our family, as they are still getting paid for us being in the district, but we are not using any of their facilities. A Voucher program would give that money to me instead. Or I could take the voucher money and pay for my kids to go to a private school (that'd never happen, but it would be my choice).

So, theoretically, I would get a big portion of my 'school tax' money back to pay for educating my children however I see fit. This is, as usual, a very simplified explanation, but you get the idea. Why are people against it? It would take money away from the very school districts that need money the most. How will our public education system ever improve if government money is diverted to private schools? Another part of the argument is that theoretically the GOVERNMENT vouchers could be used to pay for tuition at a private RELIGIOUS school. Anyhow, those are the main arguments for and against vouchers. What do you guys think?

[rileyj]

The education system teaches conformity in my opinion. This is why it's illegal to sorely educate your own children - albeit you can do it as well, but the bulk is given to them in the form of curriculums. Everybody learns relatively the same thing because if they didnt they would become individuals and freethinkers. This cant be allowed because it equals power"

Everybody learns relatively the same thing because everyone needs to know the basics. how does learning math science history etc.. stop someone from becoming and individual?

[IrishEyes]

Everybody learns relatively the same thing because everyone needs to know the basics. how does learning math science history etc.. stop someone from becoming and individual?

I don't know if you have children or not, but if you do - have you taken a look at their homework lately? Have you been in a classroom to help a teacher? It's really a sad state of affairs!

The schools are generally more concerned with their funding status than the quality of education of the children. I saw this so often, and it just saddened and sickened me. The school my children attended was a very good school, compared to others they could have attended elsewhere in our state. The student to teacher ratio was decent. The classrooms were clean. the building was new. Every class had computers. It was much better than what I had as a child. But the teachers spent so much time teaching the kids to prepare for the state's standardized testing every year that the kids often didn't get to actually LEARN!

One of my children had a fourth grade standardized test for History in the spring. The test is supposed to measure how well students retained what they were taught during the year, from a pre-determined state standard curriculum. The test was to be given the first week of April. The entire month of March was spent reviewing for this test. No spelling words were given. No math tests were given. No extra reading was given. Nothing new was taught. My child was so wound up about this test it was pathetic. Mind you, this test had no bearing on grades, or whether or not the children would advance. The school needed to get a certain % of kids to pass in order to stay accredited, and receive all of their gov't funding. I think this is pretty common for most state's. My child scored incredibly high on the exam. And do you know what that child learned? "Patrick Henry had red hair". That is the extent of retention from that entire year for 'history'. The teacher told them that as soon as the test was over, they could forget it all. I can not tell you how utterly disgusted I was!!

However, as for your question... everyone learning the same thing in the same subjects, using the same textbooks does stifle individualism. And children are not taught to think critically in schools. They are spoon-fed information and asked to regurgitate it for exams, then allowed to 'data-dump' it to make room for the next batch of spoon-fed knowledge. If your child writes a paper using a point of view that is not widely accepted, they are ridiculed. If they show creativity, it is stifled. It's like that car commercial a few years ago, with the little girl coloring the picture, and the old hag teacher yelling "Stay between the lines" at her!! Besides, if you actually read a history book from the public school, you'd probably be either sickened or astounded. I could not believe the outright lies that were printed in my child's books. History is, IMO, the worst subject. But there are others that are almost as bad.

Anyhow, public education is my pet peeve. I would like to change it from the inside, but to do that, I'd have to put my children back there, and I'm just not altruistic enough to sacrifice them :>) I guess I'll just have to wait until the youngest is out of the house to try to solve that particular problem!