Ethical dilemma?

[Boerseun]

So, I had a chat with my sister the other day, and a quite unexpected dilemma surfaced:

She's a senior prosecutor in the Northern Natal province in SA, and part of her portfolio is prosecuting child abuse cases, which inludes a surprising number of kiddie-porn cases. Problem being, of course, that in South Africa kiddie-porn cases ranks very low on the State's priority list. With violent crime being what it is, a lot more resources are allocated to other cases that to kiddie porn, with the rationale that there's no blood and guts and nobody died - obviously not the Government's public stance regarding the matter, but with tight budgets, that's what it boils down to.

In any case, I thought about the problem, and discussed a possible solution with my sister. What we do, is take some of the evidence from her prior cases, kiddie-porn .jpg's and the like, and put it up on a website. Make the website look like a bona fide underground kiddie-porn website, and we start off with the softer stuff, making it more and more "hardcore", up to the point where the visitor is asked to pay a certain amount to get to the real "hardcore" stuff. So once the guy paid his money, he gets told that he's just been suckered, and a stern admonition as to what a sick bastard he is. Then, his IP gets recorded and the money gets paid to the child abuse prosecution squad, specifically for the use in kiddie-porn cases.

I thought that this was such a brilliant solution, I mean heck - you get the kiddie-porn perps to pay for prosecuting kiddie-porn cases! Saves the taxpayer a load of dough! Imagine! It's like getting murderers to pay for murder prosecutions!

...but here's the dilemma my sister pointed out to me:

The banks won't allow this, because they'll participate in fraud - the kiddie-porn surfer pays money in good faith, expecting a product, which fails to be delivered. If we did this, we'd be committing fraud, and would be up for prosecution ourselves! Regardless of the fact that the surfer was breaking the law in the first place. Also, entrapment issues comes into play. Long story short, we're not allowed to do this because it's "unethical".

I thought it was such a brilliant idea! Do I not completely understand ethics, or have I got the cat by the tail somewhere? Kiddie-porn perps are out there, and they are surfing the net. We might as well haul a few of them in and get them to pay for their own cases.

Whaddaya say? I still think we should do this.

[InfiniteNow]

Your sister is right. Entrapment and fraud. Interesting idea, for sure, but what happens once the first 4 or 5 idiots get suckered and post an alert message to others online "avoid this site, it's a government sponsored trap..."

[Buffy]

Oh c'mon, she's an attorney! As Ambrose Bierce said:

LAWYER, n. One skilled in circumvention of the law.

Sure, if you promised more hardcore stuff would be *shown* it would be fraud, but with a little marketing and dependence on human nature, you can *easily* come up with verbiage that keeps you clean legally!

"C'mon big boy, PRESS THE BUTTON! You know you want 'it!'"

Now if you were going to *prosecute* them, this would be entrapment, but that doesn't sound like your point.

If you wanted to write up an unbelievably dense fine-print waiver, you could also have a click through on the credit card page that would give you license to post their name and address and phone number on a public web site listing "promoters of pedophilia."

Of course you're gonna have to decide whether this will all go on the plus side or minus side of your Karma, but I'd say its awfully grey St. Peter....

The road to truth is long, and lined the entire way with annoying bastards,
Buffy

[Pyrotex]

Heck, you could just be up front with the "johns":

You want kiddie-smut? Okay. But (1) you will have to pay, and (2) your money will be spent in an effort to eliminate this stuff and the people who want it. Which means that some day you may (however small the probability) be prosecuted with your own funds.
So, do you feel lucky, punk? Well, do you?
Enjoy!!!

[Boerseun]

Here's my problem with the whole thing:

Technically, it'll be fraud. I mean, I make a promise to sell the buyer a certain product on receiving his cash, and then intentionally fail to deliver. So, it'll be fraud. But what if the buyer already knowingly breaks the law either in
a) Ordering the stuff, or
b) Receiving the stuff.
Whether I deliver the smut or not, I'll be breaking the law. But the gods of happiness are on my side, because if I don't deliver to the perp, and he pays up and is out of pocket, who's he gonna tell?
So I'll get a few months for fraud, but he'll get a few years for being a kiddie-porn buyer?

Can it be fraud to sell stolen goods to a fellow thief, and then not produce the goods after receiving the cash?

[Michaelangelica]

Today I heard on radio that child abuse was endemic among Aboriginal societies.
(I expect also in some 'white' socio-economic groups too.)

This is too important an issue to trivialise it.
South Africa has so much healing to do; and so far, has done such an awe inspiring job.

Good luck to you sister.
BUT
Can't she find an easier job?

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Good luck to you sister.
BUT
Can't she find an easier job?

She prolly could - but who else is gonna do it then?

I think she's committed to the cause - something I'll never be able to do. All those poor kids will depress me to suicide.

I've got a lot of respect for her and what she's doing, and I'll do anything to help - even if it entails bullshitting kiddie-porn surfers outta bucks!

[Michaelangelica]

No rep i'm sorry

My heart goes out to you, your sister, and S. Africa.

Even though I don't believe in god I will pray for you and yours -both tonight.

Make sure she does not get "burnt out".
She needs to see a professional counsellor on a weekly basis to discuss and unload her burden.
This is a little recognised problem of the "helping professions"
Protect her.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Can it be fraud to sell stolen goods to a fellow thief, and then not produce the goods after receiving the cash?

Here's the thing.

I like your idea. I think it uses their own predilections against them. It takes a law enforcement area with little funds and boosts it's finances directly from the people they're trying to stop.

It's a huge incentive to work harder to get these guys, because that brings in more money, and it's a self-reinforcing cycle... more bad guys, more money, even more bad guys, even more money... until finally you run out of money because you've caught them all... which is a good thing.

Here's the schtick...


If the laws don't protect EVERYONE equally, then they are meaningless and are no longer laws.

Even if the circumvention of said law is to take child molesters or kiddie porn aficianados off of the street, and even if the circumvention of said law improves our ability to enforce these moral rules and restrictions and to make society better... the laws (even if it's just for fraud) must apply to all citizens the same way or they mean nothing.


I don't like slippery slopes, so I'll stop skiing now.

[freeztar]

here's the biggest problem I see:

Originally Posted by Boerseun

So I'll get a few months for fraud, but he'll get a few years for being a kiddie-porn buyer?

Wouldn't you also get years (possibly more) for being a kiddie-porn seller? I don't think vigilante tactics will hold up in court, regardless of intent. It's best to let the gov't handle such things, though even then it can be tricky. Consider the Genarlow Wilson case. The alleged tape which showed underage sexual activities was passed from one official to another, which raised questions about porn distribution (even among those involved in the case).

Imho, the best vigilante approach would be to find legal pics that are on the border of legaility (barely legal stuff), and then bait them into purchsing, or even just viewing, some underage stuff (which wouldn't exist on the site) and then take them to a page showing their IP and that it has been logged. As long as you don't recieve any money, it's only deception, not fraud (I think?). Then all you have to do is email the IP list to INTERPOL or an equivalent local agency. Then leave it to them to follow the trail of proxies.

But actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the intent to view underage material would carry the same weight (if any weight at all) compared to possession/distribution.