No one blames over-population for our diminishing natural resources! WHY NOT?

[Symbology]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

If you want to take this further then I suggest a moderator drag this whole argument elsewhere.

Good plan. I moved it over here.

[paigetheoracle]

Reading an article in The Guardian Newspaper (28th October), I was interested to find that several people researching the history and fate of The Maya, had come to the same conclusion (Jared Diamond "Collapse: How societies choose to fail or succeed"/ Marcello Canuto, Prof. of Anthropology at Yale/ David Webster of Penn. Uni./ Michael Coe) - namely that what we are going through is the same thing they went through, leading to their civilizations collapse i.e, weak leadership, population explosion, climate change and economic fall. To that I would like to add what I noticed preceded our demise - namely the collapse of educational standards and the loss of community (overconfidence and feral children on the streets in growing numbers or the equivalent of free radical damage in the body).

"Those who forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them" George Santyanna

[paigetheoracle]

When I was in Scientology they believed in infinite growth just as capitalism does but where are we going to go, once we run out of land - outer space? Don't think so - not enough craft can be built, to take a large amount of people off the Earth and as for Terraforming technology, it's still too primitive to change the Moon or Mars enough to support vast amounts of people, despite what the conspiracy theorists believe.

Unrestrained action is addiction, not sense and we're paying for it and will continue to pay for it until we knock out enough of our own population to reach sustainable numbers, not inflatable ones.

[paigetheoracle]

I predict that the collapse of this society will be interspersed with more and more hedonistic behaviour as well as accidents, Sodom & Gomorrah and Three Mile Island style. This is just part of the aging process (grasping versus letting go of control, knowledge (memory) and interest i.e. shallow egotistical pursuits, disinterest and apathy as life is revealed in all its boring details, to those who once found it passionately interesting - 'Been there, seen it, done it').

[charles brough]

paigetheoracle, I see you are also familiar with ancient history and the rise and fall of civilizations! Few people apply it to our own civilization. Hedonism, etc., yes, that's us, the break down of the marital system, political corruption and gross materialism . . .

In the Atheistic Science Institute - home page* * I actually explain the social evolutionary process that is involved in the rise and fall process. But, I must say, it is not popular reading because to do it I had to break down not only the Christian and other old religious systems but our secular system as well. And, after all, isn't it the ideological foundation of our civilization?

As you say, we are not running out of potential territory as we can expand into space and, eventually, perhaps the whole universe! but we will always have to control our population growth at least here on Earth. To manage that we only need a whole new ideological over-haul . . .

charles

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by charles brough

paigetheoracle, I see you are also familiar with ancient history and the rise and fall of civilizations! Few people apply it to our own civilization. Hedonism, etc., yes, that's us, the break down of the marital system, political corruption and gross materialism . . .

In the Atheistic Science Institute - home page* * I actually explain the social evolutionary process that is involved in the rise and fall process. But, I must say, it is not popular reading because to do it I had to break down not only the Christian and other old religious systems but our secular system as well. And, after all, isn't it the ideological foundation of our civilization?

As you say, we are not running out of potential territory as we can expand into space and, eventually, perhaps the whole universe! but we will always have to control our population growth at least here on Earth. To manage that we only need a whole new ideological over-haul . . .

charles

Oh I do so agree. Prophets are never welcome in their own country or time but then Lot had the sense to gather the sensible people together and skedaddle out of the insane asylum but where are we going to go, while the nightmare unfolds?

[Symbology]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

Reading an article in The Guardian Newspaper (28th October), I was interested to find that several people researching the history and fate of The Maya, had come to the same conclusion (Jared Diamond "Collapse: How societies choose to fail or succeed"/ Marcello Canuto, Prof. of Anthropology at Yale/ David Webster of Penn. Uni./ Michael Coe) - namely that what we are going through is the same thing they went through, leading to their civilizations collapse i.e, weak leadership, population explosion, climate change and economic fall. To that I would like to add what I noticed preceded our demise - namely the collapse of educational standards and the loss of community (overconfidence and feral children on the streets in growing numbers or the equivalent of free radical damage in the body).

"Those who forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them" George Santyanna

Yes but every generation has been saying they were THE doomed generation for as long as I have been able to find. There are always big floods, famine, economic crisis, wars, and other things that line up with Nostradamus' predictions going on somewhere.

To a large degree I find getting hung up on such things is a form of giving up, and worse a form of not taking responsibility for what is currently going on and instead just blaming it on fate and accepting it.

To a large degree it doesn't really matter who got us here. The fact is all our ancestors got us to where we are (pollution from waste, wars from greed and intolerance), and now the baton is in our hands. The question at this point comes down to what are we going to do with it while we have it?

"When the game is on the line, winners want the ball"

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by Symbology

Yes but every generation has been saying they were THE doomed generation for as long as I have been able to find. There are always big floods, famine, economic crisis, wars, and other things that line up with Nostradamus' predictions going on somewhere.

To a large degree I find getting hung up on such things is a form of giving up, and worse a form of not taking responsibility for what is currently going on and instead just blaming it on fate and accepting it.

To a large degree it doesn't really matter who got us here. The fact is all our ancestors got us to where we are (pollution from waste, wars from greed and intolerance), and now the baton is in our hands. The question at this point comes down to what are we going to do with it while we have it?

"When the game is on the line, winners want the ball"

This is similar to what I said on another website I visit - you can predict any disaster you like as one of those you mentioned turns up on a regular basis.

No it doesn't matter what got us here because 'here' is what we are responsible for dealing with and 'can' because it exists in the 'now', not the past (blame/ pass the parcel): Optimists enjoy the challenge - pessimists drop it like a hot potato (Not me! not now! not here!).

Well, what are YOU going to do about it? (Nobody listens to me)

[Symbology]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

This is similar to what I said on another website I visit - you can predict any disaster you like as one of those you mentioned turns up on a regular basis.

No it doesn't matter what got us here because 'here' is what we are responsible for dealing with and 'can' because it exists in the 'now', not the past (blame/ pass the parcel): Optimists enjoy the challenge - pessimists drop it like a hot potato (Not me! not now! not here!).

Well, what are YOU going to do about it? (Nobody listens to me)

Like I mentioned earlier, I advocate (and would be happy to vote for funding) free sterilization and birth control to anyone that wants it. I'm also willing to support further education on overpopulation, and spreading the word in forums like this

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by Symbology

Like I mentioned earlier, I advocate (and would be happy to vote for funding) free sterilization and birth control to anyone that wants it. I'm also willing to support further education on overpopulation, and spreading the word in forums like this

By the way the last line was two sided in meaning - firstly as a joke, in that it is blatant hypocrisy, throwing the blame back at you and claiming my existence is nothing to do with me (Overt criticism of others is covert praise of oneself). Also the bit in brackets is self deprecating humour or victim mentality.

The second angle is what are you 'personally' doing about birth control? Not what can you do through society to affect society (others) but do you practice birth control yourself? (How many children do you have, if any?).