SETI has it wrong!

[FrankM]

SETI starts out with the premise that the species they tag as "extra-terrestrial intelligence" will be using the earth second for determining the numeric values used for frequency. The intelligent species are using a "universal time unit" which has a different duration than the second. The universal time unit has a duration of about 0.6255... that of the SI second.

SETI has its receivers set to listen to a certain range of the electromagnetic spectrum (in the hydrogen well), and because they start out with the wrong time base, they do not cover the most logical offsets from the center frequency.

If you add Pi or 2Pi to a smaller value it will result in a bigger change. SETI is not listening to the proper offset range, which is illustrated in the pdf article below.

http://vip.ocsnet.net/~ancient/SETI-Offset.pdf

The mathematical basis of the universal time unit would be known by all truly intelligent species.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by FrankM

SETI starts out with the premise that the species they tag as "extra-terrestrial intelligence" will be using the earth second for determining the numeric values used for frequency. The intelligent species are using a "universal time unit" which has a different duration than the second. The universal time unit has a duration of about 0.6255... that of the SI second.

Huh? Seti doesn't care what the frequency is in terms of "finding significance" very broad ranges of frequencies are being examined, and of course we state the results in our units, but that's for our convenience. The Seti algorithms slice, dice, skew and transform the data all over the place to try to find anything of significance: there is no "center frequency." How would this be "hiding" the information.

And what evidence is there that "intelligent species are using a 'universal time unit'"? How would we know?

Originally Posted by FrankM

The mathematical basis of the universal time unit would be known by all truly intelligent species.

So we're not very intelligent as a species? Or is it just that the Seti folks that are all stupid? Can you explain why this has happened if its so obvious?

Do you have a source for any of this that you can reference?

Over 150000 work units processed,
Buffy

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by FrankM

SETI starts out with the premise that the species they tag as "extra-terrestrial intelligence" will be using the earth second for determining the numeric values used for frequency.

My impression (I’ve no personal contact or experience with the SETI project) is that they are mostly still looking for “spikes” in the brightness of small areas of the sky in the 1,420 cycles/sec (MHz) to 1,662 MHz ”water hole” range, because this range lies between a couple of “sensible” emission frequencies of H and OH, and because EM radiation in the wider 1,000 to 10,000 MHz range within which it lies is little absorbed by Earths atmosphere or emitted by natural sources – a “quiet zone”.

This frequency band is units-independent. It doesn’t matter whether we call it 1420-1662 Mhz, 2270-2657 cycles/”natural time unit”, or any other angular distance/time unit. It is still the same range, valid based on the assumptions that someone wanting to be heard would send a strong signal in a narrow frequency band within it.

Personally, I think a more assumption-free approach would be to look at the power-of-two frequencies in the 1-10 GHz quite zone – 2^30, 2^31, 2^32, and 2^33 Hz. I recall from a lecture from a SETI person I heard years ago that they do pay attention to these frequencies, but not as much as the water hole. I guess if I want my personal best guess to be SETI policy, I need to work for them and become influential – the guys with the keys to the big dishes are not too likely to be impressed with advice from a medical applications programmer, even one with “reputation beyond repute” at hypography.

I think a case can be made that if a ETI with a big transmitter want to be heard by another ETI (us), they’d try to imagine where several line of reasoning would lead, and hit the water hole, powers of two, and other possible “special” frequencies with some easy-to-decypher, AM, low-speed binary data. That a couple of decades of SETI (mostly Arecibo’s SERENDIP) has viewed over 20% of the sky, and found no such signal, tells us, I think, that

1. There are almost certainly (p>.99) not more than 20 such ETIs transmitting “now” (unless, for some reason, they’re all hunkered down to the south
   
2. If SETI keeps up its current pace, particularly looking at more of the southern and polar skys, it should be clear within a decade or two if such a signal exists to be found

Our galactic neighborhood is certainly not crowded with welcoming neighbors. It remains to be seen if it’s completely empty of them.

[FrankM]

Originally Posted by Buffy

And what evidence is there that "intelligent species are using a 'universal time unit'"? How would we know?

We wouldn't know if everyone concluded that the Western scientific culture is the only source of advanced "scientific knowledge".

Originally Posted by FrankM

The mathematical basis of the universal time unit would be known by all truly intelligent species.

You won't find the following process in any contemporary Western scientific texts. Build yourself a right triangle with the numeric value of of 628.318 (10^6) as its vertical leg dimension and a hypotenuse with a 1420.405 (10^6) dimension. These are electromagnetic (EM) frequencies. We customarily present frequencies using a 10^6 multiplier so the vertical leg is 2Pi with the decimal place shifted two places to the right times a multiplier. Now rotate the angle to 45 degrees while keeping the vertical leg constant. The numeric value of the hypotenuse at 45 degrees represents the exact same spectrum position as the value of the hypotenuse at 26.25400 degrees. You can develop the complete mathematical process knowing the geometric EM relationships. Just keep in mind that the "dimensions" of the inverse proportional relationship between wavelength and frequency are embedded within the geometric relationships.

Originally Posted by Buffy

So we're not very intelligent as a species? Or is it just that the Seti folks that are all stupid? Can you explain why this has happened if its so obvious?

The above needs to be parsed into its components. I will start a thread in the "Philosophy" section titled "We're not very intelligent as a species."

I did not state that any of the SETI folks are stupid. Some of the "policy making" SETI folks make assumptions that are demonstrably biased. Craig makes some comments that relate to this in his post that followed yours. Why would any ETI create an emission source that replicates the inefficient and crude modulation techniques of a society that has just recently discovered the ability to create and modulate EM emissions? We are just barely 120 years from recognizing EM waves existed. If such a signal were detected I can anticipate the conclusion, "They are no more technically advanced than we are, so there is little we learn from them?"

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by FrankM

We wouldn't know if everyone concluded that the Western scientific culture is the only source of advanced "scientific knowledge".

Is there another source you're quoting from?

Originally Posted by FrankM

You won't find the following process in any contemporary Western scientific texts. Build yourself a right triangle with the numeric value of of 628.318 (10^6) as its vertical leg dimension and a hypotenuse with a 1420.405 (10^6) dimension. These are electromagnetic (EM) frequencies....

Cool! But you don't describe why this process has any significance, nor why its superior.

More importantly though, as Craig said "the frequency band is units independent" which was my point as well, is the reason why your argument doesn't seem to make sense, yet you don't address this at all. Could you? It would be most enlightening to understand more about what argument you're making here.

Originally Posted by FrankM

Some of the "policy making" SETI folks make assumptions that are demonstrably biased. Craig makes some comments that relate to this in his post that followed yours.

Probably, but how does this relate to a "choice of frequency units?" They're clearly using units you disagree with, but as we've said, that's arbitrary and doesn't seem to have any impact on how signals are interpreted. Please expand on what specific Seti policies are off and why they lead to hiding significant results.

Originally Posted by FrankM

Why would any ETI create an emission source that replicates the inefficient and crude modulation techniques of a society that has just recently discovered the ability to create and modulate EM emissions?

No particualr reason at all. Quite possibly there is some different mechanism for communicating, but the EM spectrum is what we know. As Craig points out, the main activity of Seti is simply to find spikes *at all*, not even getting to figuring out any modulation techniques they might be using. Its notable that a modulation technique that left the EM spectrum showing perfectly Poisson distributed data elements would represent quite a challenge in debugging any system you built on it, and I could probably drag out some information theory that would show it might not be parsable at all without absolute understanding of the underlying algorithm for assembling a possibly spread spectrum message (great encryption though!).

Conversely, if we know of no other ways to utilize the EM spectrum for communications, where else do we start? Do you want to argue that we should find an algorithm first and then start looking? Which algorithm? How do we decide if its something and advanced civilization would use?

You seem to speak from a position of "Knowledge Not Known to Western Science": where is this "hidden knowledge?" Is there a conspiracy to supress it? Can you refer me to a book or a web site?

Knowledge is infectious,
Buffy

[FrankM]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Conversely, if we know of no other ways to utilize the EM spectrum for communications, where else do we start?

I will agree we do not have any other current options for high speed space communications other than the EM spectrum, so we work with it the best way we currently know.

Originally Posted by Buffy

Cool! But you don't describe why this process has any significance, nor why its superior.

If you have broken the triangle down to its basic components, you will have identified the EM half (in its primitive form) of the wavelength frequency right triangle pairs. At the 45 degree angle, the "primitive" value for the vertical leg is 2Pi and the hypotenuse is the square root of 2 times 2Pi. The original dimension set I had to work with was that of the wavelength half of the triangle pair, a vertical leg of 21.106 cm and a hypotenuse of 47.713 cm (it really wasn't in centimeters originally, I use that measurement system now as that is the current official system). I recognized the meaning of the vertical leg immediately, and after taking calculator in hand I determined the frequency equivalents of the two "wavelengths". I did not understand the real significance of the numeric value of the hypotenuse value, even though I knew it translated to the 628.31 (10^6) value in frequency. Its meaning is not simply just 2Pi times a multiplier.

For the wavelength side of the pair, in primitive units, simply draw a 45 degree right triangle and notate the vertical leg equal to "1" and the hypotenuse equal to the square root of 2.

If you draw the frequency and wavelength triangles side by side you will notice that the vertical leg of each of the triangles represents the hypotenuse of the opposite triangle. When the product of the vertical leg of one triangle times the hypotenuse of the second triangle are equal for both sets, the triangles are mutual, one is the inverse of the other. That value is also the numeric value for the constant of proportionality between wavelength and frequency; we call it the speed of light. You now have an algorithm whereby the speed of light can be expressed in a different set of units, and the translation is seamless. The algorithm allows you to get rid of the artificiallity of SI units and permits you to define the speed of light in terms of geometric relationships, mathematical constants, and using a fundamental property of the physical universe. Applying wavelengths and frequencies to the elements that define a right triangle embeds within the pair of geometric relationships the "units" that describe the constant of proportionality between wavelength and frequency.

I cannot provide to you the "mathematical proof" of the geometric relationships, but I can describe most parts of the process. The key to the process was defining the "primitive unit" of frequency as 2Pi. A frequency of 2Pi, or any tens multiple of division of that number, are the only values where "angular frequency" and "frequency" converge, thus one can "scale" the frequency where you can use the wavelength of one of the most basic emissions in the universe as a dimensional value of the wavelength triangle pair. I did not invent the process, I extracted it.

I describe the whole process in the Primitive.pdf article.

http://vip.ocsnet.net/~ancient/Primitive.pdf

Originally Posted by Buffy

Its notable that a modulation technique that left the EM spectrum showing perfectly Poisson distributed data elements would represent quite a challenge in debugging any system you built on it, and I could probably drag out some information theory that would show it might not be parsable at all without absolute understanding of the underlying algorithm for assembling a possibly spread spectrum message (great encryption though!).

Spread spectrum is one of the most efficient modulation techniques we currently know, and due to the inherent noise that will be introduced by many sources in space, this may be one of the processes of choice for an ETI, possibly direct sequence.

Although SETI search processes do not care in what "time duration" the numeric value of a frequency is defined, there are many "private" radio telescopes that are examining very specific frequencies, and it is those user that would be looking in the wrong place in the spectrum if they insist on using the SI second to determine frequency and a specific offset.

Originally Posted by Buffy

Is there a conspiracy to supress it?

No, it is done naturally by the arrogance of every current generation that consider themselves better educated and informed than any of their predecessor generations. Embedded within the current generations education are the conclusions made many decades, even centuries ago, by individuals who would now be considered scientifically backward. You might think that this archaic carry-forward knowledge is typically limited to the "social sciences", which covers things like folklore. Not so. Even some of the best educated scientists of a century or more ago provide carry-forward knowledge that is embedded into our cultural heritage, and few if anybody is examining some of the old "conclusions" which are now part of what we consider a valid knowledge base. I can read on the WWW right now so-called "scientific conclusions" made a century or more ago about some ancient culture that no one bothers to examine for validity based upon what we know today. I will put an example on the "History Forum" section that is from a currently sold book to illustrate my point, and the thread title will be "Ancient forges".

Do you know what our scientists knew about EM wavelength frequency relationships 150-200 years ago? What would you think they would have concluded if they found a dimension that equaled 21.106 cm or 47.713 cm?

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by FrankM

If you have broken the triangle down to its basic components, you will have identified the EM half (in its primitive form) of the wavelength frequency right triangle pairs....[lots 'o basic trigonometry with some vague allusions to numerological significance of the square root of 2 deleted]...You now have an algorithm whereby the speed of light can be expressed in a different set of units, and the translation is seamless. The algorithm allows you to get rid of the artificiallity of SI units and permits you to define the speed of light in terms of geometric relationships, mathematical constants, and using a fundamental property of the physical universe. Applying wavelengths and frequencies to the elements that define a right triangle embeds within the pair of geometric relationships the "units" that describe the constant of proportionality between wavelength and frequency.

Cool! But again, so what? You've come up with a different unit. Why is it important? How does it make the results differ?

Originally Posted by FrankM

A frequency of 2Pi, or any tens multiple of division of that number, are the only values where "angular frequency" and "frequency" converge, thus one can "scale" the frequency where you can use the wavelength of one of the most basic emissions in the universe as a dimensional value of the wavelength triangle pair.

All this does is say there are some natural locations, but it does not say that these locations would not be found unless we used your units.

Originally Posted by FrankM

Spread spectrum is one of the most efficient modulation techniques we currently know, and due to the inherent noise that will be introduced by many sources in space, this may be one of the processes of choice for an ETI, possibly direct sequence.

Well, sorta, it has its drawbacks, but you know what? Spread spectrum would *still* show spikes in emmissions, because it depends on being able to "home in" on the frequencies that are being transmitted on. If you *purposely* wanted to hide transmissions and keep the output within the range of the background noise, you'd be pretty paranoid to do so. I'm not sure I'd even *want* to talk to someone that paranoid! SO this still does not provide any basis for showing why we would not see spikes from a traditional survey unless we used your "special units".

Originally Posted by FrankM

Although SETI search processes do not care in what "time duration" the numeric value of a frequency is defined, there are many "private" radio telescopes that are examining very specific frequencies, and it is those user that would be looking in the wrong place in the spectrum if they insist on using the SI second to determine frequency and a specific offset.

No, they'd simply be looking at the wrong frequency no matter which unit they were using. As Craig described above there are many reasons to look at different frequencies, but none of them are dependent upon the units.

Originally Posted by FrankM

No, it is done naturally by the arrogance of every current generation that consider themselves better educated and informed than any of their predecessor generations....

Arrogance is next to conspiraciness! Sure! But no one is being *kept* from trying various frequencies. I think most Seti folk would be happy to try any frequency that had an argument behind it!

So anyway just to beat the dead horse: your main complaint still seems to be that they have to use different units. But its still not clear that units have anything to do with anything. It can be some interesting ratio like you've described or "cycles per centon" if you're a Battlestar Gallactica fan, they're still going to point to specific points in the electromagnetic spectrum and that's what we tune our receivers to. The points being selected are indeed based on ratios or computations like yours, but the units can be translated into any scale you want: the units continue to be a convenient but completely irrelevant.

Can you address this? I've got enough math to understand the ratio you're describing, you just keep saying nothing about why we should think that "SETI is all wrong" because it doesn't use your units....

Laughs per minute,
Buffy

[FrankM]

Originally Posted by Buffy

I'm not sure I'd even *want* to talk to someone that paranoid!

I don't know where you get the idea that you or SETI are going to talk to anyone, and thus have a reason to be paranoid about the type of EM modulation process used. If the ETIs know how to propagate EM signals to a very distant receiver near instantaneously, we wouldn't know how to respond in the same manner.

Originally Posted by Buffy

No, they'd simply be looking at the wrong frequency no matter which unit they were using. As Craig described above there are many reasons to look at different frequencies, but none of them are dependent upon the units.

I agree with Craig, an individual spectrum position by itself has no dependence on units, but if you want to tell somebody else to look at the same place you need to specify a common agreed upon measurement system.

If one wanted to examine a precise offset from a spectrum position of 1420.405 (10^6) the units used are critical. The graphical presentation used in the first post illustrates the difference if one used the duration of the SI second versus that of the "universal time unit". I have communicated with several individuals that have "private" radio telescope systems and they are looking at specific offsets from the 1420.405 value. They think there are logical reasons to examine the spectrum at specific offsets. I think they are correct, and the source documents(s) where I extracted the mathematical process that defines the EM triangle pairs strongly suggests 2pi is a universal key for a variety of "extractions".

We already know that 2Pi is a critical value in many scientific calculations, thus it wasn't completely strange when I found that value was the "key" to the triangle pairs process.

"Do you know what our scientists knew about EM wavelength frequency relationships 150-200 years ago? What would you think they would have concluded if they found a dimension that equaled 21.106 cm or 47.713 cm?"

[FrankM]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Can you address this? I've got enough math to understand the ratio you're describing, you just keep saying nothing about why we should think that "SETI is all wrong" because it doesn't use your units....

I want to address this question separately, but I will need a little more time to express my answer.

[FrankM]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Can you address this? I've got enough math to understand the ratio you're describing, you just keep saying nothing about why we should think that "SETI is all wrong" because it doesn't use your units....

They are not "my units". The units are a result of the relationships within the wavelength frequency triangle pairs. The units are mutually created using mathematical constants and the unit relationships within a basic physical science "truth", the inverse proportional relationship between an electromagnetic (EM) wavelength and a frequency.

In a sense I am targeting SETI somewhat unfairly in this thread as they are not responsible for the units they use, but they are part of the "physics community" that is responsible for supporting a system of units that have nothing to do with the rest of the universe. Physicist-mathematicians have been trying to find a "system of natural units" that fit the "real physical universe" for many decades. What is interesting is that several approaches to developing "natural units" remove the current SI definition for the "speed-of-light" (SOL) from the process. If you use the SI definition you are stuck with the "meter" and the "second". The new definitions for the "unit of length (L)" and the "unit of time (T)" are defined using the numeric values of other physical science constants. The "natural unit systems" are attempting to find units for mathematical algorithms that might reveal natural relationships within the real physical universe.

Unfortunately, to create their "natural systems" they artificially define one or more of the other "physical science constants" as being equal to "one". Additionally, all of the attempts to develop a natural system of units utilized a step-by-step process, each step creating one element of the definition set, then creating the next definition using a similar process. The SI uses a serial step process, it first defines a "second" and all related units are defined from that starting value.

The process used to develop the wavelength frequency triangle pair relationships does not start out by defining the values for length or the duration of the time unit. The value for the SOL, and the associated units, are the result of "mutual relationships", these being obtained from mathematical constants.

If you examine the numeric values for the triangle pair that illustrates the results using SI units, you will recognize that the numeric value of SOL would be the same as the frequency if the "natural unit of length" was that of the wavelength of the neutral hydrogen emission; multiply the SI value for the SOL by 4.737961..., the number of times 21.106cm goes into 1 meter. That removes the "meter" from the process, as the length is now "one" in a non-metric unit of length, but we know its physical length is equivalent to 21.1061 cm or 8.3097 inches.

If you want to remove the SI second from the process you rotate the angle to 45 degrees, this being the angle where the wavelength and frequency pairs are defined in their "primitive" units. At that angle the duration of the "time unit" is defined relative to two mathematical constants.

Any intelligent species that has developed their science and mathematics to approximately the same primitive level as we are today could have identified the process described in the "Primitive.pdf" article, unless their "scientific community" was also hammered into accepting a system of units that was designed for commerical use.

Maxwell recommended the scientific community adopt a length value different than the meter.

The most universal standard of length which we could assume would be the wavelength of a particular kind of light... Such a standard would be independent of any changes in the dimensions of the earth, and should be adopted by those who expect their writings to be more permanent than that body. James Clerk Maxwell, 1873

Maxwell didn't know about the hydrogen emission wavelength, but if he had I think he would have approved of its use as a unit of length. The commercial interests won, and they still control the SI.

In summary, the two units and the SOL directly created by the process are intimately linked to the physical universe, unlike the current SI basic units. Think how the mathematically defined SOL can be used to redefine the joule and ampere, such that these units can be brought into harmony with the real physical science universe.