Terraforming Mars

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Way before we are able to colonise other planets we will be able to make orbiting colonies like the O'Neil cylinders. these large orbiting colonies will make the need for planets obsolet. Once we are able to build these colonies the way we build manufactured housing now we can build hundreds of thousands if not millions and slowly spread through out the galaxy. Only using planetary systems for raw materials and leaving the planets alone.

Billions of years of evolution to live in a metal can floating in a lifeless vacuum.
What a beautiful visionary you are.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

Billions of years of evolution to live in a metal can floating in a lifeless vacuum.
What a beautiful visionary you are.

Thunderbird, you know that is not what I am talking about. Your ignorance of what an O'Neill type of colony is doesn't excuse your harassment of me. I don't follow your posts looking to take cheap shots at you. Give it a rest.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Thunderbird, you know that is not what I am talking about. Your ignorance of what an O'Neill type of colony is doesn't excuse your harassment of me. I don't follow your posts looking to take cheap shots at you. Give it a rest.

I believe this is my thread, here's some wisdom from an earthling such as I.

THIS EARTH IS PRECIOUS
How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

Every part of this earth is sacred to my people.
Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries the memories of the red man.

The white man's dead forget the country of their birth when they go to walk among the stars. Our dead never forget this beautiful earth, for it is the mother of the red man.

We are part of the earth and it is part of us.

The perfumed flowers are our sisters; the deer, the horse, the great eagle, these are our brothers.

The rocky crests, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man--all belong to the same family.


So, when the Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy land, he asks much of us. The Great Chief sends word he will reserve us a place so that we can live comfortably to ourselves.
He will be our father and we will be his children. So we will consider your offer to buy our land.

But it will not be easy. For this land is sacred to us.

This shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water but the blood of our ancestors.

If we sell you land, you must remember that it is sacred, and you must teach your children that it is sacred and that each ghostly reflection in the clear water of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people.

The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.


The rivers are our brothers, they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our canoes, and feed our children. If we sell you our land, you must remember, and teach your children, that the rivers are our brothers, and yours, and you must henceforth give the rivers the kindness you would give any brother.
We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs.

The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on.He leaves his father's graves behind, and he does not care.

He kidnaps the earth from his children, and he does not care.

His father's grave, and his children's birthright, are forgotten. He treats his mother, the earth, and his brother, the sky, as things to be bought, plundered, sold like sheep or bright beads.

His appetite will devour the earth and leave behind only a desert.

I do not know. Our ways are different from your ways.
The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the red man. But perhaps it is because the red man is a savage and does not understand.

There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the unfurling of leaves in spring, or the rustle of an insect's wings.

But perhaps it is because I am a savage and do not understand.

The clatter only seems to insult the ears. And what is there to life if a man cannot hear the lonely cry of the whippoorwill or the arguments of the frogs around a pond at night? I am a red man and do not understand.

The Indian prefers the soft sound of the wind darting over the face of a pond, and the smell of the wind itself, cleaned by a midday rain, or scented with the pinion pine.


The air is precious to the red man, for all things share the same breath--the beast, the tree, the man, they all share the same breath.
The white man does not seem to notice the air he breathes.

Like a man dying for many days, he is numb to the stench.

But if we sell you our land, you must remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sigh.

And if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where even the white man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow's flowers.


So we will consider your offer to buy our land. If we decide to accept, I will make one condition: The white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers.
I am a savage and I do not understand any other way.

I've seen a thousand rotting buffaloes on the prairie, left by the white man who shot them from a passing train.

I am a savage and I do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive.

What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of spirit.

For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

You must teach your children that the ground beneath their feet is the ashes of your grandfathers. So that they will respect the land, tell your children that the earth is rich with the lives of our kin.
Teach your children what we have taught our children, that the earth is our mother.

Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth. If men spit upon the ground, they spit upon themselves.

This we know: The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth. This we know.

All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. All things are connected.

Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth.

Man did not weave the web of life: he is merely a strand in it.

Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

Even the white man, whose God walks and talks with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny.

We may be brothers after all.

We shall see.

One thing we know, which the white man may one day discover, our God is the same God. You may think now that you own Him as you wish to own our land; but you cannot. He is the God of man, and His compassion is equal for the red man and the white.

This earth is precious to Him, and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its Creator.

The whites too shall pass; perhaps sooner than all other tribes. Contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.
But in your perishing you will shine brightly, fired by the strength of God who brought you to this land and for some special purpose gave you dominion over this land and over the red man.

That destiny is a mystery to us, for we do not understand when the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses are tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with scent of many men, and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.

Where is the thicket? Gone.
Where is the eagle? Gone.
The end of living and the beginning of survival.

Chief Seattle

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Thunderbird, you know that is not what I am talking about. Your ignorance of what an O'Neill type of colony is doesn't excuse your harassment of me. I don't follow your posts looking to take cheap shots at you. Give it a rest.

Its called a drawing.

[dcmike]

TO Chief Seattle:
I agree 100% with what you say here. But also bear in mind that at one time there were no "people" of any color. As evolution dictated, we arrived on land as most insignificant, struggling little blobs. As we evolved we wandered even more, seeking - always seeking something. The 'red man' came from elsewhere as well, wandering to new lands to survive. And this will never stop until the last human succumbs to his mortality.

One day far in the future our beautiful island in the cosmos will lose it's beauty and become a hellish scorched cinder. I wouldn't choose to live in a capsule (as described in another post), but when that time comes and people are offered such a life - or death, only they can answer if it is worth it. "We" are planning ever more huge mega-buildings that would not only house you but remove the need to ever leave for want of anything. In Japan such things are in the works. These complexes will contain everything needed "live" - grocery stores, movie theatres, schools, ad infinitum. As we move further and further away from the natural life of the old ways, we will become more and more groomed for the ultimate condo in the sky.

It is a sad thing to see what we are doing with what we have now. It is sad that there is even a debate on global warming. Does it matter that some of it is natural? Would you not run from a meteor because it's natural? We are still heading for disaster, and many selfish souls are happy to palm it off on the future generation.

What went wrong Chief Seattle? Religion and overpopulated cities ("civilization") went wrong, and took everyone with it. People in cities have more opportunity to find mates, so they overpopulated and expanded to other areas. They were forbidden by their religion to control population by any means but war. As they crossed the oceans and landed on other people's homelands their cross was held high and millions fell beneath it. When you believe your religion makes you superior to all others you can denigrate the "unclean" and treat them as less than human - with sanctity. No guilt was felt because "God was on their side". Americans still worship this same god, never asking if he was immature then and has grown wiser now. It is still believed he was and is perfect.

Brutality is a human trait. Were we really created in god's image? As we gain more knowledge about the true nature of what we did to the American Indian we must also factor in the Aztecs for balance. They brutally conquered all their neighbors and made them produce gold and subjects for human sacrifice. A small number of conquistadores defeated them by making allies of their brutalized neighbors. Is it not ironic that:

• The Spaniards then exacted the gold from the Aztecs and slaughtered them too? One son of a bitch against another.
• The English then stole the gold from the Spaniards who had stolen it from the Aztecs who had stolen it from their neighboring tribes?
• The Aztecs converted easily to Christianity because both religions centered around human sacrifice!!

Why weren't the plains Indians brutal and depraved like that? Could it be because of lack of what we call civilization? Permanent dwellings and easier survival? It is getting harder to survive because we gather in cities, overpopulate and tax all resources. That's why the Mayans abandoned their magnificent cities. But they at least had somewhere to go. When they left the cities the human sacrifices disappeared.

As we lose our humanity more day by day and ponder our fate, remember one thing. In the Bibles the word heaven was never used in the singular, it was always "the heavens", and that referred to the entire vista upon which we gaze every night. One day all that is left of Christians, Muslims and Jews will peer out the windows of their orbiting capsules and gaze upon the desolate domain of their god - in the heavens.

[Thunderbird]

Thoughtful post, a bit depressing and misguided, but thoughtful, none the less.

Our collective future is one about vision, space is to explore but not for an escape rout from our problems.

We have all we need here and now to make a better future.

But you ungrateful children of men do not see it. You inherent the riches from your fore fathers and all you can do is complain.

Vision has to do with valuing our gifts as men, and the global community of man, then honoring theses gifts that are given to us by building on them for future generations to come.
I believe in this..... Its a good vision to have...... its a good path to take...... Its a wise path to take..... it is the only path to take.
Any ideas of leaving a mess to another to deal with or giving up, or blaming past generations, is selfish stupidly.

Our ancestors had it much harder than we do and they did not give up. We should be thankful for the thousand generations of people that worked and sacrificed to ensure our place on this beautiful planet

[dcmike]

To the question:
"I have read though the past threads, and everything I can find on the net, but I still do not see how we can bring a dead planet to life."

Although everything in theoretical physics is theoretical, it is believed that as the Sun heats up and expands - the very factor that forces us off Earth will melt Martian polar ice caps and restore liquid water to the surface. This would also retain more heat and some water would presumably go into the atmosphere as clouds, etc, etc. This would buy us another half billion years if it were feasible. Man has always wandered to find suitable habitat. Only difference - the trips and vehicles required would be on a bit grander scale.

I would imagine that, at this point, humanity would value environmental issues more heavily. They could tell their great, great,etc....grand children wonderful legends about oak trees, majestic feathered birds and beaches.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by dcmike

To the question:
"I have read though the past threads, and everything I can find on the net, but I still do not see how we can bring a dead planet to life."

Although everything in theoretical physics is theoretical, it is believed that as the Sun heats up and expands - the very factor that forces us off Earth will melt Martian polar ice caps and restore liquid water to the surface. This would also retain more heat and some water would presumably go into the atmosphere as clouds, etc, etc. This would buy us another half billion years if it were feasible. Man has always wandered to find suitable habitat. Only difference - the trips and vehicles required would be on a bit grander scale.

I would imagine that, at this point, humanity would value environmental issues more heavily. They could tell their great, great,etc....grand children wonderful legends about oak trees, majestic feathered birds and beaches.

You bring a dead planet to life the same way you bring a sterilized petri dish to life, you change the conditions to the point that life can survive then then transfer life to it. Life then multiplies and changes the environment further until the planet can support complex life. Genetic engineering will probably be used to speed up the process.
mars isn't too far from being able to support extremophiles now. It may even have it's own extremophiles under the crust. Changing the surface of mars to support complex life will take thousands of years at the very least, it will not be easy but it is possible. I think humans are more likely to build orbiting colonies around the sun than terra form a planet.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

You bring a dead planet to life the same way you bring a sterilized petri dish to life, you change the conditions to the point that life can survive then then transfer life to it. Life then multiplies and changes the environment further until the planet can support complex life. Genetic engineering will probably be used to speed up the process.
mars isn't too far from being able to support extremophiles now. It may even have it's own extremophiles under the crust. Changing the surface of mars to support complex life will take thousands of years at the very least, it will not be easy but it is possible. I think humans are more likely to build orbiting colonies around the sun than terra form a planet.

Hey, all we have to do is go get another planet from another solar system it will be just like going to the planet store, and if our sun runs out of energy we can just make another one woopeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

Hey, all we have to do is go get another planet from another solar system it will be just like going to the planet store, and if our sun runs out of energy we can just make another one woopeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

No need for a planet store, we'll live in tin cans and strangle each other for no reason at all........