New idea about UFO's!

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

So you don't give any credence to sightings that cannot be explained as secrete aircraft or natural objects? There is also photographic evidence. In this day and time any photograph is immediately suspect due to photo shop and other means of faking the photos but there really are some sights, photos and even films that are really difficult to explain by simply saying they are false.

I am not going to tell the people who saw and photographed strange objects in the sky around the turn of the century they were fakes or tell the people who took photos before the idea of aliens was part of "pop" culture, or sightings by astronauts in space. Nor would I be willing to tell the crew of a B-52 bomber that saw a UFO, saw it's echo on radar, took pictures of the radar screen as the UFO flew along side their nuclear armed aircraft. Several military personnel on the ground also saw this craft, military radar on the ground saw it, and a commercial airline pilot. If the crew of an aircraft that carry nuclear weapons are hallucinating then we have a very big problem.

No doubt many if not most photos are fake or do not contain enough information to really be evidence of anything but a dark spot on film.

There so many discrepancies between the obvious fakes and the miss identified aircraft idea that a scientist that was hired to debunk UFO's by the military eventually came to believe that something out of the ordinary was happening. He left the military and started his own investigation. J. Allen Hynek was this scientist and he was highly critical of the Air force for not taking any investigation seriously.

While none of this proves anything it does raise questions that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as fakes, lies, and mistaken identity. These things do puzzle me, then again maybe there is a giant conspiracy stretching back Hundreds of years to make people believe in alien space craft. One thing is for sure, we are getting to the place with technology that hiding in our solar system is becoming a difficult thing to do.

One thing I would like to at least show is that there is room for doubt, while this doesn't mean that UFO's are alien space craft. It just means the case hasn't been closed on what at least some of them are.

I think Hydro is correct in that modern UFO is mythology. I do believe in life other than our own in the universe, but I think the biological and distance barriers preclude any physical contact.

One arrant bacteria or virus would wipe out all life on another planet that it did not co-evolve with.

We still tend to think of ourselves as traveling frontiersman, we've been doing this for thousands of years, but I believe the next evolutionary step is the getting our collective shit together here on earth.

When this happens mankind I believe will then find the infinite all around and right in front of his eyes, and will not deem it necessary to launch himself into space to explore the universe.

If you did ever communicate with one of the advanced civilizations out there they would have probably advanced though a technology stage and then progressed out, or skipped it all together and developed into super being’s. In the book dune, Frank Halbert address this advancement of mental powers, over the technology. I would Imagine any information they had would be useless to us in our primitive stage. What advise would you give to a caveman ?

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

I think Hydro is correct in that modern UFO is mythology. I do believe in life other than our own in the universe, but I think the biological and distance barriers preclude any physical contact.

One arrant bacteria or virus would wipe out all life on another planet that it did not co-evolve with.

We still tend to think of ourselves as traveling frontiersman, we've been doing this for thousands of years, but I believe the next evolutionary step is the getting our collective shit together here on earth.

When this happens mankind I believe will then find the infinite all around and right in front of his eyes, and will not deem it necessary to launch himself into space to explore the universe.

If you did ever communicate with one of the advanced civilizations out there they would have probably advanced though a technology stage and then progressed out, or skipped it all together and developed into super being’s. In the book dune, Frank Halbert address this advancement of mental powers, over the technology. I would Imagine any information they had would be useless to us in our primitive stage. What advise would you give to a caveman ?

How are your idea's of super beings any more likely than my idea of an alien species colonizing the galaxy with slow colony ships? My idea doesn't require any fantastic tecnology or any other things that beyond our understanding. Mental powers? Lets keep this in the arena of what we know is possible. Speculation about things beyond our understanding is just as bad as saying the aliens ar walking amoung us as we speak. I don't think anything is beyond the understanding of man or any other species that is creastive and intellegent enough to make space craft. What would I say to a cave man? If I new his language there would be many things we could discuss. Hunting, fishing, farming, we are not as differnt as you seem to think. Just because a speices might have high tecnology doesn't mean they will be super beings. Super beings are not much removed from the supernatural. We might appear to be super beings to a primitive but we would stil have things in common. High tecnology doesn't mean super being, it might mean an adavnced tecnology that would appear to us to be magic but if we were told it was tecnology most of us could go with that the same way we use tecnology we can't understand as individuals. how many people could make a nuclear powered aircraft carrier? We can all understand it in small parts but very few people could take in the complexity of the entire ship. Take that ship back 500 years and if it was seen by the sailing ships of that it would appear to be magic but we would still be alble to explain it was just a ship with engines that pushed rather than sails. Just because those early sailors couldn't understand nuclear energy doesn't mean they couldn't understand it wasn't magic if we told them it wasn't.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

How are your idea's of super beings any more likely than my idea of an alien species colonizing the galaxy with slow colony ships? My idea doesn't require any fantastic tecnology or any other things that beyond our understanding. Mental powers? Lets keep this in the arena of what we know is possible.

This was my point your senerio is not possible. Slow transport..it would take tens of thousands of years to go to another system and then the envionment would likely kill you and if there were beings there you would not be welcome. Colonizing, you watched one to many star treck episods my freind. These would be others beings homes.

Mental evolution not in the realm of possibilities? Are you kidding.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Speculation about things beyond our understanding is just as bad as saying the aliens ar walking amoung us as we speak. I don't think anything is beyond the understanding of man or any other species that is creastive and intellegent enough to make space craft. What would I say to a cave man? If I new his language there would be many things we could discuss. Hunting, fishing, farming, we are not as differnt as you seem to think. Just because a speices might have high tecnology doesn't mean they will be super beings. Super beings are not much removed from the supernatural. We might appear to be super beings to a primitive but we would stil have things in common. High tecnology doesn't mean super being, it might mean an adavnced tecnology that would appear to us to be magic but if we were told it was tecnology most of us could go with that the same way we use tecnology we can't understand as individuals. how many people could make a nuclear powered aircraft carrier? We can all understand it in small parts but very few people could take in the complexity of the entire ship. Take that ship back 500 years and if it was seen by the sailing ships of that it would appear to be magic but we would still be alble to explain it was just a ship with engines that pushed rather than sails. Just because those early sailors couldn't understand nuclear energy doesn't mean they couldn't understand it wasn't magic if we told them it wasn't.

You not reading the post this is what I said

If you did ever communicate with one of the advanced civilizations out there they would have probably advanced though a technology stage and then progressed out, or skipped it all together and developed into super being’s. In the book dune, Frank Halbert address this advancement of mental powers, over the technology.

Mabe your never read Dune or you have ADD I don't know but also my question was about what could you learn from a advanced being. The answer would be nothing.... just as you would not be able to teach a cave man anything to make him a better cave man.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

This was my point your senerio is not possible. Slow transport..it would take tens of thousands of years to go to another system and then the envionment would likely kill you and if there were beings there you would not be welcome. Colonizing, you watched one to many star treck episods my freind. These would be others beings homes.

Mental evolution not in the realm of possibilities? Are you kidding.




You not reading the post this is what I said


Mabe your never read Dune or you have ADD I don't know but also my question was about what could you learn from a advanced being. The answer would be nothing.... just as you would not be able to teach a cave man anything to make him a better cave man.

Orbiting colonies do not occupy planets, I never said they were colonizing planets so the environment of the Earth is a moot point.

Tens of thousands of years to make to another star! What are you doing, crawling there? Even at one percent of the speed of light, magnetic sails could give us this speed with a little help from Nuclear energy it would just take four hundred years to go to the nearest system. Not thousands of years.

A civilization colonizing space would have no real use for Earth like planets, you didn't read my whole post did you? As I said using current technology we could occupy pretty much the entire galaxy in 250,000 years. Not a long time in the grand scheme of things and we wouldn't need planets. Orbiting debris would be plenty for most colonies to build more colony ships and slowly move out into space.

Stars like Sol would be likely targets because of the large amounts of metals in our sun. The solar system is unusual in that the sun and the rest of the solar system has a high level of heavy metals. This means planets, asteroids, and comets. That is why any aliens might come here to colonize the space around the sun, not for the earth.

And yes I read Dune and all the dune books several times, it's called Science Fiction dude. It's not a prophecy, it's imagination. No one has any reason to think that huge mental powers will replace technology. As for Star Trek, that's fiction as well. There will be no huge communities of humans evolving on different planets and mating with each other. If it does turn out like that then ID is real, evolution is directed by someone for sure!

How do you make statements like a cave man couldn't learn new things? What do you mean by caveman? The term Caveman is totally misleading to start with and it has connotations that are highly suspicious. Modern humans lived in caves, so did Neanderthals. Neanderthals had bigger brains than we do.

If you took a human infant from one of those caves and raised it in modern times it would have the same potential as a human born today. Just because they didn't start using nuclear power in their cave doesn't mean they were inferior in any way to us intellectually. An adult "cave man" might not be able to take in quantum mechanics but he would be just as intelegent as any normal human would be.

[Ahmabeliever]

I would Imagine any information they had would be useless to us in our primitive stage. What advise would you give to a caveman ?

This is assuming they are friendlies, and cave men, not cave monkeys...

This is a wheel, this is a fishing net, this is a cannabis plant, this is flint, these are earth bricks, this is an irrigation ditch, this is composting, permaculture, terra preta, wine.... I am GOD

If we were to colonize space the easiest way would certainly be as outlined in the initial post. Orbiting colonies.

Set a few up round the earth to test them out, see how they run, send one off to a further planets orbit, see how it goes there, and then off to another star...

It makes sense that another race could progressively do this exact same thing.

On the believability scale of urban legends, I'm a Sasquatch fan.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Orbiting colonies do not occupy planets, I never said they were colonizing planets so the environment of the Earth is a moot point.

What would be the advantage of living in space? There is no air, water, food, soil, sky. There are cosmic rays, meteors, boredom, incredibly expensive, would be depressing, Closter phobic and generally unhealthy and unnatural to what a human needs to live a decent life.

What is the purpose? what gain is there to be had?

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Tens of thousands of years to make to another star! What are you doing, crawling there? Even at one percent of the speed of light, magnetic sails could give us this speed with a little help from Nuclear energy it would just take four hundred years to go to the nearest system. Not thousands of years.

We have no such technology that you speak of, they are just ideas, I remember when I was a kid technology was about space exploration, we were in the space age. We are now in the communication age. There is a trend toward globalization, take to the next step you have a singularity, a unification. This will undoubtedly bring about a new world. This is the next evolutionary step. This idea of moving to a better pastures after we have depleted our resources can no longer be an option. Migration is the past. Integration is the future.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

A civilization colonizing space would have no real use for Earth like planets, you didn't read my whole post did you? As I said using current technology we could occupy pretty much the entire galaxy in 250,000 years. Not a long time in the grand scheme of things and we wouldn't need planets. Orbiting debris would be plenty for most colonies to build more colony ships and slowly move out into space.

I assumed the reason for taking such a long trip is to visit other planets. You would need to replenish your stores. how is this possible when your light years from earth?

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Stars like Sol would be likely targets because of the large amounts of metals in our sun. The solar system is unusual in that the sun and the rest of the solar system has a high level of heavy metals. This means planets, asteroids, and comets. That is why any aliens might come here to colonize the space around the sun, not for the earth.

I'm sorry that's just silly, aliens travel light years because they need metal.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

And yes I read Dune and all the dune books several times, it's called Science Fiction dude. It's not a prophecy, it's imagination. No one has any reason to think that huge mental powers will replace technology. As for Star Trek, that's fiction as well. There will be no huge communities of humans evolving on different planets and mating with each other. If it does turn out like that then ID is real, evolution is directed by someone for sure!

Some Sci-Fi writers like frank's are considered futurist. His book Dune is set in the future, but is a comment on our society. You've read these books and never made that connection.

Maybe you should read them again and then look around at the issues of today. He may not be a prophet, but his books are definitely prophetic. They seem to have come true about society.

The Sci-Fi space travel part has not, this is an important point that your not seeing about our future. The space travel is just window dressing fantasy for what these books are really addressing about are future. Your making the fantasy real and leaving the practical aspect to wast.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

How do you make statements like a cave man couldn't learn new things? What do you mean by caveman? The term Caveman is totally misleading to start with and it has connotations that are highly suspicious. Modern humans lived in caves, so did Neanderthals. Neanderthals had bigger brains than we do.

If you took a human infant from one of those caves and raised it in modern times it would have the same potential as a human born today. Just because they didn't start using nuclear power in their cave doesn't mean they were inferior in any way to us intellectually. An adult "cave man" might not be able to take in quantum mechanics but he would be just as intelegent as any normal human would be.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything at all with anything I said. My point is You cannot teach a caveman to be a better caveman. scientific nomenclatures are not necessary when one is speaking Metaphorically.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Ahmabeliever

On the believability scale of urban legends, I'm a Sasquatch fan.

Ok Ahmadeliever do you really belive in Sasquatch ? we may need to open a new thread.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

What would be the advantage of living in space? There is no air, water, food, soil, sky. There are cosmic rays, meteors, boredom, incredibly expensive, would be depressing, Closter phobic and generally unhealthy and unnatural to what a human needs to live a decent life.

What is the purpose? what gain is there to be had?

Have you read about O'Neill type colonies? very large rotating objects you live on the inside surface of? they are big enough to contain their own ecosystems. Plenty of room and large enough to shield from meteors and radiation. Not to expensive if you make them assembly line from the materials at hand in the asteroid belt and from comets and small ice moons. the advantage is a plethora of the very things you say they would not have!


We have no such technology that you speak of, they are just ideas, I remember when I was a kid technology was about space exploration, we were in the space age. We are now in the communication age. There is a trend toward globalization, take to the next step you have a singularity, a unification. This will undoubtedly bring about a new world. This is the next evolutionary step. This idea of moving to a better pastures after we have depleted our resources can no longer be an option. Migration is the past. Integration is the future.

I assumed the reason for taking such a long trip is to visit other planets. You would need to replenish your stores. how is this possible when your light years from earth?
I'm sorry that's just silly, aliens travel light years because they need metal.

Some Sci-Fi writers like frank's are considered futurist. His book Dune is set in the future, but is a comment on our society. You've read these books and never made that connection.

Maybe you should read them again and then look around at the issues of today. He may not be a prophet, but his books are definitely prophetic. They seem to have come true about society.

The Sci-Fi space travel part has not, this is an important point that your not seeing about our future. The space travel is just window dressing fantasy for what these books are really addressing about are future. Your making the fantasy real and leaving the practical aspect to wast.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything at all with anything I said. My point is You cannot teach a caveman to be a better caveman. scientific nomenclatures are not necessary when one is speaking Metaphorically.

I beg to disagree, primitive humans would more than capable of learning new things, that is how we got to where we are. civilization didn't just start because humans suddenly got smart a few thousand years ago. it really start fifty thousand or more years ago. a phase change did occur but a great deal of tiny steps were necessary before we could capitalize on that change. A human "caveman" and suspect an Neanderthal "caveman" as well could be taught many things if you started simple with concepts he understood. A stone age hunter gatherer could easily be taught farming as long as you didn't insist he start out with the type of complex farming we do today. he could be taught to smelt and use metals. once you had these things to build on in just a few generations he could be taught to build houses out of native materials, taught to domesticate animals, taught the importance of cleanliness, to build cities. No you couldn't teach one individual these things anymore than I could be taught to colonize space but these things would be with in the grasp of his comprehension if taught slowly in incremental steps.

So

[Thunderbird]

Your misrepresentations of my points are growing exponentially on every post, and is getting old. Communications is about understanding the issues raised on both sides, then going from there.

Work on it.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

Your misrepresentations of my points are growing exponentially on every post, and is getting old. Communications is about understanding the issues raised on both sides, then going from there.

Work on it.

Please tell me point for point how I have misrepresented what you are saying. I am a reassonable man and quick to admit my mistakes but I don't see it that way in this case. Show me different and I'll apologize. but don't expect me to believe you are correct just because you say so. I have countered every point you made, please do me the same with out simply telling me I am wrong.