How secure is our space project future?

[charles brough]

It looks increasingly precarious to me!

I would say the standard of living of Americans has declined in the last ten years and people are too worried about it to focus any longer on space exploration. The desire to catch up with Sputnik and get into space has long since died; it is dead, dead! I have talked with people who resent spending the money on the Space Program.

Funding for NASA is relatively unchanged. The Mars project is projected so far out into the future because funds are low. NASA has even had to hire a public relations firm in order to try to get some enthusiasm restored in the general public.

So, the project drifts along on momentum, but that could change suddenly. Just one more space accident in which astronauts are killed and the whole space effort would be set back and forgotten.

"What is going on?," one might ask. Why this lassitude when we are clearly running out of room here on Earth. Anyone interested in the long term future of the human race can clearly see that outer space is where our future lies. We have the whole universe in front of us to learn about and colonize. Otherwise, we are a doomed species here in the long---perhaps even intermediate---term.

If the goal of "God's Kingdom on Earth" can shape three mainstream religions into building civilizations, we need one with "space colonizing" as its goal, a goal that is actually achievable! Our present goal is "the pursuit of happiness." That, instead, is a goal one cannot achieve by looking for it---certainly not just by accumulating "stuff!" . . .and goals at what we human work for and towards. Otherwise, we drift and get nowhere.

[Eclogite]

The problem with your thesis Charles, if I may be so bold, lies in everything that is implicit in the words 'we'. 'Our' space program, if I may reciprocate the egocentric approach, is quite healthy, here in Europe. It has built steadily and progressively, without any of the razmatazz and chest beating which accompanied the US program. Because it has been constructed prudently I am not aware that it is not under particular threat.

The Chinese and Indian programs are also proceeding apace. We may even see a space race between these two along the lines of the US/USSR event.

I share your belief that we should set as our destiny the goal of beginning the colonisation of the rest of the galaxy, subject to prior ownership, of course. What I do not share is your belief that 'our' space project is doomed, unless you mean the NASA venture. And even there I would point to the likes of Bert Rotan (spelling?) to save 'you'.

[Moontanman]

I think there is some reason to think the US space program is in trouble. The US seems to be infatuated with spreading our culture around the world, by force if necessary (no cracks about us not having a culture please) This absolute stupidity is sucking money away from many things and very few seen to be worried about the cost.

If we were to invest 10% of this money into an active and aggressive space program the US would own the inner solar system in just a few decades. No one else could possible keep up and we would (for those hawks) effectively own the highest of all high grounds. In warfare who ever owns the high ground has always be thought of as having a tremendous advantage.

So far our military seems to have missed this point. Once we are active and installed in force in places like the asteroids, Jupiter's Lagrange points and even further out the moons of Saturn we (or who ever has the will and drive to do this) will be completely in control of the high ground.

Why would this be advantageous? Even if you dismiss the tremendous amounts of easily accessible raw materials and the ability to make things in zero gee that cannot be made on the earth, imagine if a county attacked us and a few days later their major military bases were to disappear in a multimegaton explosion with no radioactivity involved! Just the threat of such a thing would be sobering to most if not all countries.

Countries that support terrorism could draw retribution for any attacks by weapons of mass destruction without endangering nearby cities and people with radioactive fall out. The high ground is where we need to be, if not the US then it will be someone else, eventually.

[charles brough]

Originally Posted by Eclogite

The problem with your thesis Charles, if I may be so bold, lies in everything that is implicit in the words 'we'. 'Our' space program, if I may reciprocate the egocentric approach, is quite healthy, here in Europe. It has built steadily and progressively, without any of the razmatazz and chest beating which accompanied the US program. Because it has been constructed prudently I am not aware that it is not under particular threat.

The Chinese and Indian programs are also proceeding apace. We may even see a space race between these two along the lines of the US/USSR event.

I share your belief that we should set as our destiny the goal of beginning the colonisation of the rest of the galaxy, subject to prior ownership, of course. What I do not share is your belief that 'our' space project is doomed, unless you mean the NASA venture. And even there I would point to the likes of Bert Rotan (spelling?) to save 'you'.

For a "citizen-of-the-world," I sure messed up there! I have been blinded by "our" US chauvenistic, chest-beating media treatment! My impression is that the other programs are far behind, but I suspect "they" are catching up fast.

"We" and "they" are very important words. I often use the word "we" for "the West," that which was once Christendom but is now the heart of Secular Humanism. Also, I use "we" being the US as the "leader" of the "free world" as they say.

I am curious as to what you believe would happen to the European space effort if the US had another failure of a space launch filled with people? I doubt that it would slow the Asian effort, but it seems to me it would have a major, negative effect on the European progrem you mention.

[charles brough]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

If we were to invest 10% of this money into an active and aggressive space program the US would own the inner solar system in just a few decades. No one else could possible keep up and we would (for those hawks) effectively own the highest of all high grounds. In warfare who ever owns the high ground has always be thought of as having a tremendous advantage.

So far our military seems to have missed this point. Once we are active and installed in force in places like the asteroids, Jupiter's Lagrange points and even further out the moons of Saturn we (or who ever has the will and drive to do this) will be completely in control of the high ground.

Makes sense to me except that it cannot, I think, happen. I think the whole world will have to become united into a new society, and that colonizing space cannot occur in our now religiously divided world. The real expansion of humanity out into space colonies may well take more time than our present civilization will last. The competition going on between our societies not just for space exploration but more important for space here and natural resources because of different religions and our numbers crowding the Earth mean, to me, world economic and political problems will proliferate. Compound that with fifteen to twenty thousand nuclear bombs and missiles. I think conditions will have to get much worse. Only after conditions become so desperate that we are forced to adopt a new and more advanced world-belief system can it improve. It will take that to bind the whole world into a single society and new civilization dedicated to space travel, environmental care, population control. and the end of racism.

[Eclogite]

Originally Posted by charles brough

My impression is that the other programs are far behind, but I suspect "they" are catching up fast.........I am curious as to what you believe would happen to the European space effort if the US had another failure of a space launch filled with people? I doubt that it would slow the Asian effort, but it seems to me it would have a major, negative effect on the European progrem you mention.

The European programs have always been much more modest in comparison and much more oriented towards the science. The US program grew out of cold war tensions and always had a strong military context. The science kind of bolted on, almost as an afterthought and only because of the dedicated efforts of those who wanted to make it happen.
The Europeans have placed their program within a broader approach to science in general. Because they have focused on the science their involvement in manned flight has been incidental and inconsequential. Therefore, I believe a further Challenger/Columbia type tragedy would have no effect on the European program at all, because it is primarily - at this stage - an unmanned, scientific effort. I believe and hope it will continue to grow at a sensible pace until the technology allows for an affordable manned presence in space, separate from our involvement with the ISS. The latter I consider to be a marvellous symbol that should never have been built - much like the shuttle.

This all sounds very negative about the NASA and the US program, so for balance I should say that I spent the sixties waiting patiently from JFKs announcement till Armstrong and Aldrin set foot on the moon. I was enthused by the imagination of the goal and in awe of its achievement.
Then somehow, perhaps because of Vietnam, or Tricky Dicky, the US seemed to lose its way and the I think the grander space program became lost at that point. The unmanned program continues to be brilliant - apart from the odd units conversion error in the vicintiy of Mars.

This is not a very cohesive post, but I trust you get my drift.

[charles brough]

....very coherent and well balanced. Thanks.

In the US, the over-humanism takes strange shapes and causes strange results. It is growing, also. Now, it is a question how long families that cannot provide for another child and do not want it will not be able to get an abortion and more unwanted children and bleeding, self-mutilated pregnant women will appear again. They fight stem-cell research. This large minority in the US also promotes Intelligent Design and opposes evolution.

You don't find this problem perhaps in any other Christian nation other than here in the US so it is hard for others to believe it is going on here. Another such loss of life in a space flight could indeed reduce it almost to a garage project again.

It is reassuring to know that it carries on in Europe and the Far East.

[hiddenlodge]

How secure is our space project

as secure as your internet network WWW

If the goal of "God's Kingdom on Earth" can shape three mainstream religions into building civilizations, we need one with "space colonizing" as its goal

the egocentric goal of mankind has nothing to do with GOD's plan, well who am I to speak in his name anyway
I have to agree with some of you Europe is doing a great job with the hundred of satellites

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by hiddenlodge

as secure as your internet network WWW

the egocentric goal of mankind has nothing to do with GOD's plan, well who am I to speak in his name anyway
I have to agree with some of you Europe is doing a great job with the hundred of satellites

There is no God's plan, if we could use the concept of religion to further the goal of space colonization I would be all for it. But religion is more than willing to kill in Gods name to prevent another religion from monopolizing "God's" plan or at least their version of it.

[Theory5]

Another problem is that American intellegence levels are declining.
I go to a voc. tech. school and people here dont even know basic physics. At the begining of the year my Physics teacher held up two objects and asked if they would fall at the same rate! (Basic physics you learn in elemetary school, right?) Practically everyone said "No". My sister goes to the town high school and she is doing physics in 9th grade. They take the physics MCAS in 9th grade! Appearently cities like brockton have a lower average intellegence level than a pre-school.
I bet most kids in this school would be willing to kill for shoes (again, thank you brockton). Appearently science is non-existant in most American minds. Thats why NASA's budget is so low. And since we are so far in debt I doubt we will make it to mars before the sun goes nova. Other countries probably will have colonies on the moon and mars soon enough.
The only thing that we have done that has any significance is launching New Horizons which was last year(?)
I wish Americans would actually start learning again so in a few years we have better technology, and arn't sitting around trying to figure out if rocks are edible, and fighting wars to get better shoes from other people ( "For nike!").
And about the whole "intellegent" design thing, I am just going to say, I doubt god threw dinosaur bones in just to confuse the heck out of us.