Colonizing Mars

[Moontanman]

Sadly most of the negative rep given Golds ideas are due to people who used his ideas to try and disprove that oil was a limited resource. Gold never said this, he said that oil and natural gas and coal (yes coal, coal is often found associated with oil fields) were being created in an on going basis and refilling oil fields (this has been shown to be real) but the process is far to slow to affect peak oil in any conceivable way. The last part was ignored by the people who wanted oil to be limitless and the first part ceased on by the peak oil people as being impossible. His ideas became a sticking point for both sides and since he wasn't here to defend his ideas ( he's dead) very little was done to investigate and much was done to debunk often as part of an effort to deride the anti peak oil people by the peak oil people. Until we can get past the whole idea of refilling oil fields saving the oil crisis it is unlikely any neutral investigation will take place.

For there to be oil on Mars there must be life deep in the crust, since oil is geology worked by biology, with out life there is no oil.

[Eclipse Now]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

For there to be oil on Mars there must be life deep in the crust, since oil is geology worked by biology, with out life there is no oil.

Oh, I thought Gold was abiotic? No life involved? Gold mainly pointed to thermophiles as explaining why there were any genetic markers in the oil at all.... in other words, saying they came from the bugs in the ground rather than the ancient algae?

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Eclipse Now

Oh, I thought Gold was abiotic? No life involved? Gold mainly pointed to thermophiles as explaining why there were any genetic markers in the oil at all.... in other words, saying they came from the bugs in the ground rather than the ancient algae?

Have you read Golds work? His work has been distorted greatly by the big peak oil, anti peak oil argument. He said the oil was geology reworked by biology, everyone else says that oil is biology reworked by geology.

[Eclipse Now]

No, I've mainly read brief summaries from either side and not really gone into it too deeply because:-
1. It seems to be the minority view amongst the geologists that are out there actually hunting for the stuff
2. It doesn't affect peak oil either way
3. Not my kind of "recreational reading"... I'm more of an executive summary layman than an actual scientist (my welfare & humanities background and all)

[Pyrotex]

It occurs to me that in order to discuss the colonization of Mars (what's the title of this thread again?), it might behoove us (I love that word) to mutually agree on a couple of items that would otherwise present major obstacles to any progress on this subject.

So. For the benefit of the thread, I propose we reach a concensus on these items:

1. The trip from Earth to Mars (and vice versa) shall nominally be 50 days. This assumes some higher technology than chemical rockets, and will not be discussed further in this thread.
2. Some form of material radiation shield shall be found that absorbs 90% of radiation per 10 cm thickness, and has a density about that of styrofoam. This allows enough protection to make the 50 day transit not overly dangerous, and enables some of the Mars colony to be built on the surface.

Given these two assumptions, we can get down to the fun stuff: talking about a Mars colony.
I hope.

[Moontanman]

Pyro, shouldn't there be a #3, a heavy lift capable vehicle to drag all the machinery, bulldozers and backhoes and such, from the Earth's surface to orbit? Even if they are made of titanium and aluminum they will be heavy and needed on Mars for any real attempt at colonization. I don't think several astronauts with shovels is going to do the job.

[Pyrotex]

Okay, #3, what Moontanman said. We have a HLV on Earth, capable of putting, say, 600,000 pounds into low Earth orbit (LEO). That's the equivalent of one dozen Shuttles launches.

[Moontanman]

If all three things are a given it almost seems like the rest is just logistics but a colony on Mars would be comparable to a colony on Antarctica only harder. I think we need to break it down into steps, the first of which we have taken care of we have a capability to be on Mars in strength but what so we do first if we are there? I think a food supply is of the first order (after building shelters of course) Will greenhouses under an open sky be viable?

[Pyrotex]

I think we should start with automated landers on Mars. They would contain habitats, food, water, vehicles. One of them would be an atomic power source. One or more would be ascent rocket vehicles.
THEN we land the people after we know they will have what they need on the surface.

[Eclipse Now]

Straight out of KSR. I remember the 150 settlers landing and the first surface missions to "go get stuff". Went something like "I found a few year's food rations", "Yeah, well I just found the mechanical workshop"... "Yeah, well I just found a F.....ing NUCLEAR POWER PLANT!"