UFO!

[Tim_Lou]

lets carry out a discussion about UFO.

what is UFO? what is consider as an UFO?
do they really exist? do you believe in them? why or why not?

is it that an alien is driving an UFO to our world? if so, where do they come from? another galaxy? how can they travel to us? if its true that means there are high intelligent organisms like humans exist in the space?

whats your opinions?

well, i believe that UFO exists, since there are sooooooo many people claim to have seen it.
one or two may be fake, but thousands.....theres got to be something. since the universe is infinite big, there is a possibility that aliens exist.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
lets carry out a discussion about UFO.

what is UFO? what is consider as an UFO?

A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object.

do they really exist? do you believe in them? why or why not?

As such, yes any object that is flying, that has not yet been identified, is a UFO. Do ojects exist that are flying and not immediately identified? Sure. But they stop being UFO's once they ARE identified.

is it that an alien is driving an UFO to our world? if so, where do they come from? another galaxy? how can they travel to us? if its true that means there are high intelligent organisms like humans exist in the space?

Now the discussion changes. Once more we get into the discussion of PROOF, rather than CLAIMS or EXPLANATIONS.

Many things that have very simple natural explanations are often presented as UFO's. Stars, swamp gas, ball lightning, headlights reflecting off of low clouds, ... there are MANY things that cause people to claim they see something they swear are "flying saucers" from outerspace.

whats your opinions?

Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary proof. Nothing new there.

well, i believe that UFO exists, since there are sooooooo many people claim to have seen it.

one or two may be fake, but thousands.....theres got to be something.

This is just another argument fallacy. Argumentum ad numerum - consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. Thousands, in fact MILLIONS, used to be absolutely convinced that the earth was flat. They made all kinds of claims to personal experience confirming it. How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it IS true or not.

since the universe is infinite big, there is a possibility that aliens exist.

OK, that "makes sense". But to then propose, that since the chance of another intellegent species exists somewhere in the universe is all but certain, that we would be the intentional target of some other intellegence, that the odds of our small planet, in a at best average solar system, in an outer arm of a massive galaxy, would be THE spot in the entire universe that large numbers of aliens would intentionally visit... well... does that sound rational in ANY WAY?

Further that an advanced species would have nothing better to do than to sneak up on people (typically inconsequential, less educated people) and cram things up various openings.

Then there are the reports we get from "recovered memory". Some therapist helps a sufferer regress in time to "discover" their hidden memory of abduction. Much of this happened during the same time that another group of therapists were helping "sufferers regress in time to "discover" their hidden memory of" sexual abuse. Hundreds of each. Interestingly, there is not a single case of a UFO investigator EVER finding a sexual abuse victem, nor conversely a sexual abuse therapist finding a UFO abductee. NOT ONE! Statistically this is absurd. The ONLY assertion one can derive from this fact is that the process ALWAYS finds what it is looking for. Leaving little validity to the process.

I can not claim to have investigated EVERY UFO claim. But EVERY claim I have checked into falls apart when it is examined critically. And there is not a single claim that has been shown to be supported by FACTUAL evidence.

I hope this stuff is starting to get thru to you Tim. I hope you are starting to see why these things are so bogus. I hope you are stating to grasp what IS and what is NOT valid proof. I suggest you read

Logic & Fallacies
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

Learning to make a first cut of

[Tim_Lou]

freethinker, thx for replying.

[Freethinker]

Seriously Tim, have you gained anything from our discussions? Have you identified areas where you might benefit from a deeper understanding of Critical Thought Processes and rational thinking?

[Tim_Lou]

....just came back home and i now have time for this discussion.

yes, i am learning many things in this forums in a various ways... thats y im staying here and spend some of my gaming time for viewing these articles which not many people are really intrested.

"Many things that have very simple natural explanations are often presented as UFO's. Stars, swamp gas, ball lightning, headlights reflecting off of low clouds, ... there are MANY things that cause people to claim they see something they swear are "flying saucers" from outerspace."

well, but if these stuffs successfully explain everything about UFO, y is there a huge amount of people believing in it? i know that some scientists are trying hard to prove it as well as the people trying to deny it.

"Thousands, in fact MILLIONS, used to be absolutely convinced that the earth was flat. They made all kinds of claims to personal experience confirming it. How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it IS true or not."

well, have you ever got around the world? have you ever went to the outer space to see if the earth is rounded? this 21th century would be another period in the history just like in the past when people think the earth is flat. (may be the earth is really a twisted shape, dimensions are twisted so we see it as round....i dont know.)

also, whats motivating millions of people to make fake videos and pictures? do i get a hundred bucks for bringing a UFO video to the internet? what do you think that make SOOOO many people to waste their time to make "fake" videos and photoes for just a little bit of show up and getting no real benefits? imagine you were they, why would you spend this much time to make a fake video or pictures on UFO? these take at least an hour to make it looks real i bet. y not spend some time on this forums? also, UFO is spread SO wildly, in China, in Korean, in America, in Europe...i bet no one can really unified all those people to make fake but similar UFOs.

yes, your right, UFO "doesnt exist" yet, there hasnt been a real proof. but there are questionable facts that exists, they should not be ignore and seen as a stupid idea. And this is the reason y we should discuss about these facts to see if they tend to be more right or wrong...

proofs are important, i agree, i ask proofs in math class all the time... (but sometimes people just say "the book says so", it blows me off...) but, when i think about proofs, what are the proofs based on? whats the thing that proofs are based on base on?.....ultimately, no proofs are really supporting these facts...

hypotheseis always comes b4 theory, so, something without proofs is as important as something w/ proofs.

also, im not crazy about UFOs, people being abducted are totally unreal. but there are way too many cases that people can deny, way too many photoes and videos are involve with these. there must be a reason behind, it may be either a guy who spends billions of $ on making fake UFOs, or it is really something unknown...

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
yes, i am learning many things in this forums in a various ways... thats y im staying here and spend some of my gaming time for viewing these articles which not many people are really intrested.

Thanks for that, Tim!

Freethinker:
"Thousands, in fact MILLIONS, used to be absolutely convinced that the earth was flat. They made all kinds of claims to personal experience confirming it. How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it IS true or not."

Tim:
well, have you ever got around the world? have you ever went to the outer space to see if the earth is rounded? this 21th century would be another period in the history just like in the past when people think the earth is flat. (may be the earth is really a twisted shape, dimensions are twisted so we see it as round....i dont know.)

You don't need to go into out space to confirm that the Earth is round, Tim. The Greeks confirmed this more than two thousand years ago.

The first person to (officially) sail around the world was Ferdinand Magellan between 1519-1592.

Today we have thousands of satellites buzzing around the Earth taking all kinds of measurements and photos.

Tim:

well, i believe that UFO exists, since there are sooooooo many people claim to have seen it.
one or two may be fake, but thousands.....theres got to be something. since the universe is infinite big, there is a possibility that aliens exist.

Billions of people se the sun get up in the east and set in the west, every single day. Does that mean it orbits the Earth? Yet people thought that, too.

Just because lots of people see things, doesn't make it a fact.

I agree that there is a possibility that aliens exist (hell, I am quite sure they do) but UFO theories are not about probablilties - it is about believing that someone is covering up the "Truth" that these beings from outer space want to "teach" us. Which, frankly, is highly unlikely.

And, for the record, we don't know whether the universe is infinite or not. There are theories about both, but so far I think there are many camps (infinite, fininte part of infinite whole, finite, fininte in volume but infinite in time, ect etc).

Tormod

[Tim_Lou]

alright, alright...

im not saying that UFO really exists.
what i mean is that we should really put some attention on it.

lets carry out some discussion here.

UFO is always seen as a disk shape, is there a special reason? or is it just b/c that a dish shape is easy to make (fake UFO)?

many UFOs involve in special lights, y is that? maybe reflection of sunlight?

do you think that the american government is hiding something? nasa will probably know something about it.

here is a website you might be interested in: website about UFOhttp://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/mainpix.html

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
alright, alright...

im not saying that UFO really exists.

what i mean is that we should really put some attention on it.

There is a lot of attention being put to it. That is part of the point. UFO believers want to pretned that there is proof, but it is either being ignored or there is an intentional effort to not find it. They adopted the 2nd part because no matter how much effort is ever put into researching it, NOTHING is EVER found. So rather than admit the growing LACK of data, the FAILURE of research efforts, they create a myth that research is NOT being done.

One thing that is ignored in many discussions about scientific knowledge, is what drives efforts in research. Sure there is the drive of the individual researcher. Something they personally are interested in. But they have to be funded. Most research going on is either high end theoretical in a very limited number of Universities. The vast majority is corporate funded. Even in most Universitites, they use corporate funding and are targetted towards areas of research that the corporate world finds of value.

Think of how much funding would flow in to any scientist that could provide factual proof of an actual extraterresteral visit. Just in TV shows. Books, speaking fees, sponsorship. Think of how much funding the space program/ NASA would get if they could prove an extraterrestrial entity. Look at how much they got just by suggesting that Mars might have actually had life at one time! Our space program is based on funding from interest in "outerspace". Of course they are looking for UFO's.

lets carry out some discussion here.

Tim, that is so much better of an approach then when someone just makes claims that somethig does exist and then the discussion is merely trying to get proof from them.

An open inquiry dialog can be quite interesting.

UFO is always seen as a disk shape, is there a special reason? or is it just b/c that a dish shape is easy to make (fake UFO)?

There have been a number of shapes, with cigar shaped being very popular for a period of time. It shows how the shape is often connected to societal interests of the time. Plus one of the early movie fakes was made using saucers and thus it's shape stuck in the mind. Add to this that many light effects such as reflections over the horizon from lensing would be elongated/ saucer shaped.

many UFOs involve in special lights, y is that? maybe reflection of sunlight?

Our vision is worse at night. And all kinds of light effects occur at sunrise and more so sunset. An object in the sky can be illuminated by the sun while it is below the horizon. So yes, light is often a major element of UFO sightings. In fact many UFOs are merely light. Relections, illuminations, phosphorescence, ...

do you think that the american government is hiding something? nasa will probably know something about it.

I do not suspect NASA in any way. It is way too small and underfunded to be a bastion of secret intell. Doe shte American Gov hide things! Is the pope catholic? But there is little logic behind most accusations specifically relating to UFOs.

[Tim_Lou]

has anyone one heard of "rods" or something like that? (something like "flying stick")

i saw a video on it. it says that it is a unkown creature with super fast speed. it lives in some wild places... lots of pictures and videos are taken.

i remember it says that these "creatures" are found in a movie! forgot the name, it was found in a part of that movie in slow motion. these creatures are so fast that even in video, it is like a flash, but when people play it in super slow motion, its image appears very unclearly...

and i fail to find that website, sry about this...i'll keep searching anyway...

[Tim_Lou]

]http://www.geocities.com/croctwotm/rods.htm
here is a chinese website with some pictures.



found it: the website about rods:
http://www.roswellrods.com/pre.html

take a look at this video trial about rods:
http://www.tracieaustin.com/viewspec...show.asp?ID=27
(i saw the whole video above, i remembered...)




here is a website that claims to explain everything about rods, take a look on the other side:
http://www.xenophilia.com/zb/zb0001.htm#7