[C1ay]

Originally Posted by Gardamorg

I'm mad because your acting like I didn't do it to the best of my knowledge, and that I'm intentionally trying to decieve you and earn respect that isn't deserved.

Oh, I completely believe you've given it your all, your complete ability. The fact of the matter is that you don't have the ability to prove that it will work or the ability to prove anyone's refutations wrong. We're a science forum and when someone comes around proclaiming I've got the best way in the world to get to Gliese we expect them to prove it and do so with real science. Now, can you SUPPORT your claim or not?

[Janus]

Originally Posted by C1ay

I'm wondering....what are the chances such a solar sail could travel the expanse between here and Gliese without experiencing any damage? How much damage could such a fragile craft endure without effecting its alleged performance?

Me thinks perhaps your chances would be better at winning the 3 largest lotteries in the world all on the same day...

For the sake of argument, let's say we get our light sail up to 0.1c
Using a low-end estimate of 100,000 atoms per cubic meter for the density of the interstellar medium, the total kinetic energy due to collision with said medium works out to about 2.25 joules of energy per sec per meter², or the equivalent of output of a 2.25 watt light bulb shining on every square meter of the sail.

This may not sound like much, but as always, the devil is in the details. In this case, it doesn't matter as much what the total energy absorbed is as it does the form in which it is absorbed. For instance, I could could bask in the 2.25 watt output of a light bulb indefinitely and suffer no harm, but I couldn't say the same for being exposed to the same wattage output in gamma radiation.

In this case, the energy is delivered by hydrogen atoms moving at a speed of 0.1c relative to the sail. this gives each an energy of about 5Mev. Not only is this enough to "boil away" atoms from the surface of the sail, it is close to the range of binding energy for nuclei themselves.


Considering that every square meter of the sail will collide with some 3e12 atoms per second, and the relative thinness of the sail, I wouldn't expect it to last very long at all.

And this isn't even considering the effect of collision with dust and micro-meteoroids.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Janus

For the sake of argument, let's say we get our light sail up to 0.1c
Using a low-end estimate of 100,000 atoms per cubic meter for the density of the interstellar medium, the total kinetic energy due to collision with said medium works out to about 2.25 joules of energy per sec per meter², or the equivalent of output of a 2.25 watt light bulb shining on every square meter of the sail.

This may not sound like much, but as always, the devil is in the details. In this case, it doesn't matter as much what the total energy absorbed is as it does the form in which it is absorbed. For instance, I could could bask in the 2.25 watt output of a light bulb indefinitely and suffer no harm, but I couldn't say the same for being exposed to the same wattage output in gamma radiation.

In this case, the energy is delivered by hydrogen atoms moving at a speed of 0.1c relative to the sail. this gives each an energy of about 5Mev. Not only is this enough to "boil away" atoms from the surface of the sail, it is close to the range of binding energy for nuclei themselves.


Considering that every square meter of the sail will collide with some 3e12 atoms per second, and the relative thinness of the sail, I wouldn't expect it to last very long at all.

And this isn't even considering the effect of collision with dust and micro-meteoroids.

That is why the Star Ship Enterprise has navigational shields, with out them it couldn't travel even close to the speed of light much less hyperlight. I recall more than a few times when this happened and they had to slow down big time! (don't you just love Science Fiction when it's done right!) I remember reading another sci-fi story about a star ship powered by zero point energy, it was driven to very close to the speed of light but it had to have a shield of ice sever kilometers thick to avoid being destroyed by interstellar dust. They talked about boring a hole through space with the ice shield. (Songs of Distant Earth, A.C. Clark)

[Overdog]

I recall reading a book by Issac Asimov on the topic of star travel, and IIRC his idea was a hollowed out asteriod, and thousands of years travel time even to the closest stars. Given our current technology, IMHO, no one has come up with with a better idea yet.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Overdog

I recall reading a book by Issac Asimov on the topic of star travel, and IIRC his idea was a hollowed out asteriod, and thousands of years travel time even to the closest stars. Given our current technology, IMHO, no one has come up with with a better idea yet.

I'm betting that after we get orbiting space colonies perfected we will be able to accelerate a a large orbiting toroidal colony to around .5% of the speed of light using magnetic sails and nuclear powered ion drives. this should give us at least 200 years per light year of travel and with a self contained colony that wouldn't really be looking for habitable planets but just raw materials to make more colonies the future looks very bright!

[Gardamorg]

Originally Posted by C1ay

Oh, I completely believe you've given it your all, your complete ability. The fact of the matter is that you don't have the ability to prove that it will work or the ability to prove anyone's refutations wrong.

Saying that that is to the best of my ability is a flat out lie, it's to the best of my knowledge at the time being.

Originally Posted by C1ay

We're a science forum and when someone comes around proclaiming I've got the best way in the world to get to Gliese we expect them to prove it and do so with real science. Now, can you SUPPORT your claim or not?

You know what your doing right now Clay? Your provoking me, asking rhetorical questions to raddle my cage, first class baiting.

Since I'm the bigger man I'm not going to listen to you. And if you continue I will report you.

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by Gardamorg

Since I'm the bigger man I'm not going to listen to you. And if you continue I will report you.

OMG C1ay...

[Moontanman]

I like your ideas Gardamorg, they are a little bit behind the curve but you keep on pursuing them with all you have and one day it will be you having the last laugh. Every one starts some where, you obviously have started out a little ahead of most people. Most of us are way behind and at an age where we don't even have a chance to get up to speed much less do anything really creative. Your ideas are creative, don't stop thinking that way.......

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Gardamorg

Since I'm the bigger man I'm not going to listen to you. And if you continue I will report you.

Oh... dude. You really couldn't have put your foot in your mouth harder than you did above.

You do realize, don't you, that when you "report a post" that it gets directed to the site staff, specifically the Admins? You do also realize, don't you, that C1ay is one of the most active site admins here?

Just because he asks you to support your points and address criticisms doesn't mean that he is trying to provoke you. If ANYTHING, he is trying to provoke you into understanding the weaknesses of your idea and provoke you into improving it.

Also, I've read MANY of Janus' posts here, and while you can choose to disregard them if you'd like, I'd suggest otherwise. Not only is he incredibly knowledgable on this topic, but he's also an amazingly gifted teacher. You should embrace the opportunity to learn from his reactions, and be thankful that he cares enough to respond to your ideas and try to help you.

Let go of the ego, open the book, learn the math, and you may find better answers. That is all.

[Gardamorg]

Originally Posted by Overdog

I recall reading a book by Issac Asimov on the topic of star travel, and IIRC his idea was a hollowed out asteriod, and thousands of years travel time even to the closest stars. Given our current technology, IMHO, no one has come up with with a better idea yet.

What would work better is a god sized solar powered space station/battery canon close enough to the sun to absorb enough solar energy to power the battery canons for thousands of years, these battery canons will be pushing a leightweight solar sail using lasers or microwave transmitters, according to a scientist named Frisbee, "Microwave transmitters can be used to blast the sail until it heats to 2000 Kelvin, which would accelerate the sail at 100's of G's to get the sail up to 1/10th the speed of light."

Now larger battery canons (Like the ones I'm talking about) can produce stronger microwave transmissions.