[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

T-Bird, it's annoying enough for you to claim to know something for sure that cannot be proved, when you declare to know something when you really don't know what you are talking about it is much worse. At least I know to quit when the discussion goes over my head. You just think your veiws are always correct no matter how little evidense you have to back them up. Do you give out golden fleece awards to everything you don't understand? the only place humanity can get the resources nesesarry to continue our civilazation is space. We spend a paltry sum on this endevor, what we need to do is cut the bloated buracracys off at the knees. A good start would be to make churches account for every dime they take in and to tax them just like the corporations they are. Government and corporations will be more difficult but if everyone insists on it eventually it will get done. Governments and corporations have had an incestous relationship for far too long. The old scratch my back and I'll scratch yours mentiality is killing us as a sociaty.

You cannot escape yourself.... no matter where you go.... there you are. Why do you think going into space to live inside a can with your fellow man is going to make things better. What are you going to do if someone pisses you off in the can. Are you going to go outside a get a breath of freash air and look at the clouds and the blue sky until you feel better.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

You cannot escape yourself.... no matter where you go.... there you are. Why do you think going into space to live inside a can with your fellow man is going to make things better. What are you going to do if someone pisses you off in the can. Are you going to go outside a get a breath of freash air and look at the clouds and the blue sky until you feel better.

First using the resources of space doesn't necessarily mean colonization but to answer you directly..... I guess it would depend on how big the can was and how big the asshole was you had to share it with. (don't you just love it when a plan comes together)

[freeztar]

Let's try to stay on topic guys.

[Ahmabeliever]

I am in agreeance that churches play their role in society. However, we could give our money to an organisation accountable for it's services, an organisation that doesn't propogate superstition ignorance shame racism war terrorism sexism homophobia... but that's another debate entirely....

Beauracracy - that hit's the nail on the head. Departments that protect departments that protect departments. Instead of protecting civil rights they protect themselves from unemployment by protecting the corporations that promote them...

Layers of manure to cover the real stink of corruption and corporate interests.

Governments have a role to play. As usual, it seems they are more intent on role playing than playing their role.

Our resources are plenty but are being chanelled by cancerous forms that leech from this overall supply for themselves. Government assistance to people is inefficient, laden with personal agendas, and ridiculously incompetent. Church is unaccountable. Corporations are by their nature required to perform financially and will break any unwritten rule (or make new rules) to do so. These 3 diseases weaken all of humanity. Our economies ecology relations science education health security and well being all suffering for it.


Space phobic Turtle?

Fix the planet and the future!

Move forwards together take responsibility for our own fate we are the Gods we are the masters of the universe. Inept though we may be, ill equipped but slowly with opening eyes we learn cleanse the superstition from our minds through the murky waters of early science and on towards those first shores of endless space.

Stand in awe of the potential

Now, how do we sort out these idiots running the place to use

Terra preta, hydrogen, organic ecosystems for food production, solid waste extraction in all major centres, lose lots of beauracracy, centralise associated research on many things (cancer being the obvious), two child families...

Lemme see thats population, food crisis, pollution, no need to go to war for oil or food or land anymore...

I don't know how we take the power off these 3 groups and channel it for the real greater good, but it would be a giant leap forward for mankind.

[sanctus]

I do not like bureaucracy neither, but I wonder can you imagine a social system without it that isn't Anarchy? And for that we are not ready yet, we still need laws to live together...

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by sanctus

I do not like bureaucracy neither, but I wonder can you imagine a social system without it that isn't Anarchy? And for that we are not ready yet, we still need laws to live together...

Why does a social system imply bureaucracy? I think we can have an effieciant social system with laws and no bureaucracy.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Ahmabeliever

The real problems, that are intrinsically connected, are the 3 C's.

Corruption, Corporations, Churches.

I disagree.
Of those three, two are not a problem in and of themselves (corporations and churches).
Corporations and churches only are a problem when the people that run them are corrupt. So I propose that of those three, only corruption is the true problem.
There are corporations and churches that do great service for their members and in some cases humanity.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Why does a social system imply bureaucracy? I think we can have an effieciant social system with laws and no bureaucracy.

I suppose that depends upon your definition. If you have laws, who makes those laws, who enforces them and who punishes law-breakers?
I think any of the above requires some level of bureaucracy.
However, I agree that too much bureaucracy is a very bad thing and the amount of bureaucracy should be kept to a minimum.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

I suppose that depends upon your definition. If you have laws, who makes those laws, who enforces them and who punishes law-breakers?
I think any of the above requires some level of bureaucracy.
However, I agree that too much bureaucracy is a very bad thing and the amount of bureaucracy should be kept to a minimum.

Mankind’s enviable fate will not depend on any scientific or institutional intelligentsia that we can invent, but will succumb to the eventual Tao, or way, inherent within information itself.

[Ahmabeliever]

Churches do a great service bla bla bla.

They also do mankind a great disservice.

We don't need a mythical God to be good people, we don't need churches to do service to humanity. They are and have always been a blight on intellect self responsibility and self expression.

I couldn't give a toss how many bake sales they run. Based on absolute rubbish they perpetuate lies and seperatism.