[TheBigDog]

There is no question of the existence of unidentified ______ _______ (Fill in the blanks). It is the debate over the hypothesized explanations that causes the controversy. The human imagination is so powerful that it is difficult to take eyewitness accounts unless they are from large groups. Bigfoot, alien abduction, UFO, Nessie... take the cause of your choice, but be prepared to meet a burden of proof. I have seen many strange things. I am often convinced at first glance that there is something very weird happening, but after further consideration I often realize how wrong that first glance was. Still, there are things that are just too weird and defy any reasonable explanation based on the data I have. But that does not mean I have to leap to a far fetched solution dictated by pop-culture. I think many see these things because they want them to be true, so their brain works on explanations to fit that want. Logical leaps are made to fill the gaps. We all do it, just some of us are more passionate about fulfilling the myth than others; many choose to leap to the non-myth explanation. Call this closed minded, it is much like the logical conclusion to be an atheist.

I have seen UFO's, but strictly defined they were flying objects that I could not identify. I am one of the only people I know who had plane silhouette cards for practicing spotting as a teen, so I hold myself to a high standard of spotting flying things.

Bill

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

There is no question of the existence of unidentified ______ _______ (Fill in the blanks). It is the debate over the hypothesized explanations that causes the controversy. The human imagination is so powerful that it is difficult to take eyewitness accounts unless they are from large groups. Bigfoot, alien abduction, UFO, Nessie... take the cause of your choice, but be prepared to meet a burden of proof. I have seen many strange things. I am often convinced at first glance that there is something very weird happening, but after further consideration I often realize how wrong that first glance was. Still, there are things that are just too weird and defy any reasonable explanation based on the data I have. But that does not mean I have to leap to a far fetched solution dictated by pop-culture. I think many see these things because they want them to be true, so their brain works on explanations to fit that want. Logical leaps are made to fill the gaps. We all do it, just some of us are more passionate about fulfilling the myth than others; many choose to leap to the non-myth explanation. Call this closed minded, it is much like the logical conclusion to be an atheist.

I have seen UFOs, but strictly defined they were flying objects that I could not identify. I am one of the only people I know who had plane silhouette cards for practicing spotting as a teen, so I hold myself to a high standard of spotting flying things.

Bill

I like to stick with the sightings that are totally inexplicable. Lots of witnesses, radar, professional pilots, military on the ground and in the air. Nuts and bolts craft, no way it could be one of ours, that sort of thing. Yes they are out there but most skeptics don't allow themselves to get caught up in such sightings, too difficult to explain away as comets or thrown hub caps. I too am pretty good at spotting aircraft and that has served me well in avoiding actually seeing something I couldn't explain. Lights in the sky mean nothing either. I would like to see a real investigation of these inexplicable sightings with so much information they are embarrassing. too often they are swept under the rug and never discussed in favor of sightings that are easier to dismiss.

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Be nice Paige, I happen to be very interested in UFOs but making the assumption they all spin or even that some of them spin is not very accurate. Spinning is a trait associated with only a small number of craft. Even the disk shape is not part of all or even most sightings. Many are cigar shaped triangle shaped but most are random lights and glowing globe shapes that don't conform to the spinning disk at all.

I am being nice! Some people took the Mickey and I've just returned the compliment: No harm done I would have thought unless you're thinking of a few bruised egos.

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Seeing something does not necessarily make it real. What looks like an oasis in the dessert may be a mirage.



I have. Furthermore, you could test to see if the people in this forum are real. You could get their addresses, go to their house, and talk with them. We can't say the same for UFOs.

According to the evidence what can we say but that 'some' spin (filmed/ reported doing so). Looking at known flying objects - birds and insects have wings or membranes for gliding. Man made objects have rotors (helicopters/ autogiro's), jets and propellers plus wings or gas filled skins (balloons). Then of course there are rockets. So why should UFO's (If they are vehicles) not have different methods of propulsion and appearance as well?

The question is not do UFO's exist but what are they and are they physically real? (More than just visual projections like mirages). I remember hearing that mirages are actually based upon real but distant objects that appear close by because the heat haze acts as a magnification device. That this could also be true for UFO's has also been put forward as a theory (From other dimensions/ across vast distances of space as probes because the distance is too great for living things to traverse).

A lot of things exist that are not physically real (Lacking 3-D form/ touchable) but we don't dismiss them: Emotions and thoughts for instance are subjectively real, even if not objectively real - take them away and you would have no conversation or entertainment etc. What proof is there that a layman could accept that planets have now been discovered in outer space or that atoms exist? They take these things on 'trust' another subjective reality. If it wasn't for technology, the only evidence that the man in the street has that science exists is theory they can't personally verify (Gobbledygook - words, words, words).

All the evidence through films and eye witness accounts indicate a visual phenomena (light on film or on the eye) and on the ground with close encounters, some kind of electro-magnetic phenomena, that distorts reality as in a dream (The Oz Factor, Jenny Randles/ The Electric Universe Theory - Wally Thornhill amongst others (including Albert Buddens work too): I mention him as he's got a website on it that I know of, so it can be followed up by interested parties/ Quantam reality as opposed to Newtonian physics, which is always thrown up as a defence against this non meat and potatoes reality or matter versus energy, yet where does matter come from where dos energy go? (The attraction of opposites)).

All I'm trying to say is what does the phenomena tell us about itself, if we accept it at face value as scientists, engineers and other interested and 'reasoning' parties.

From my own personal experience I see a link between my own 'SEP' episode (mentioned on another thread in the Strange claims forum), Bedroom visitors (Hypnopompic and hypnogogic visitations) and lucid dreams (hyper-real/emotionally charged). It's like a chain leading into and out of my world into this one. Interestingly sleep deprivation leads to hallucinations or projection into the outer world, what has not been allowed to develop within. This whole thing leads to the question of what is real, especially when psychosis and imagination comes into the equation. This world is solid mass but could this other one that impinges on it but just pure energy? (potential as opposed to actual).

Anyway what I have to say about this site is that you have to prove with your mind, what you've experienced with your body (Ground it in reality, like an errant balloon floating off in any direction the wind takes it).

[wddycus]

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history. We have learn so much in just the past 50 years. If another world started 1 billion years ahead of us just think where they would be. Some of our Universes are 1 to 5 billion years older then us and maybe they did not have to start over 2 or 3 times like we did. Their are so much of the unknown still to be Discover and so little time for each person to contribute to this melting pot we are all in. This UFO that I saw was a object it was silver in color it look like a very big round air plane that we could not hear even though we were so close to it. I hope one day they will contact us and let us be able to communicate with them but I believe they will wait until we grow up and stop killing each other over Power and Money.

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by wddycus

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history. We have learn so much in just the past 50 years. If another world started 1 billion years ahead of us just think where they would be. Some of our Universes are 1 to 5 billion years older then us and maybe they did not have to start over 2 or 3 times like we did. Their are so much of the unknown still to be Discover and so little time for each person to contribute to this melting pot we are all in. This UFO that I saw was a object it was silver in color it look like a very big round air plane that we could not hear even though we were so close to it. I hope one day they will contact us and let us be able to communicate with them but I believe they will wait until we grow up and stop killing each other over Power and Money.

You might like to look at my pictures in the social groups, under 'Who else believes in UFO's?' (Yours I believe)

[alexander]

I was reading through, figured i'd express my opinion on some of these things

Originally Posted by wd

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history

You know, it's not that hard to believe in god at this time in history either, doesn't make it any more real, nor does it mean that we should readily believe in anything. Honestly, i don't have a problem with either people, but if you are trying to keep an "open" mind, then you can not discount the possibility that UFOs may not quite be real either...

Having that said my view on this phenomenon:

There there are over 100 billion galaxies in our visible universe, each contains anywhere from 10 million to 1 trillion stars, each star may have up to, and probably over 10 planets. This means that there are, for sake of discussion, using average amount of stars in a cluster: solar systems out there... thats 10^20 systems that may potentially have at least one planet that is capable of sustaining life, we are one of 10^20, and admit it, there is a hell of a chance there fore being more then one more earthy planets out there. And that is a hell of a chance... Having that said, touching on the topic of this "UFO" phenomenon. Why do we always assume that "alien" means that they are a supremely more intelligent then us? Why do we think that some bored out of their mind aliens will jump into a circular UFO and fly a gazillion light years to observe us? Do you really think we are THAT special? and why is it most of the time around object that spins? we send lots of crap to space, do you recall anything being disk-like? wait, oh right, we tend to send missile-like things up there, because of air friction, and such.... And another thing, why do we assume that they are always a superior race that can easily wipe us off the earth, but they just dont want to intervene in our development. If there were other civilizations out there, that frequently visit, don't you think that by now we woulda gotten enslaved or something, or are all aliens somehow nice? And lastly, if you give them the kinds of technologies that change the physics, such as antigravity, why then do we still see their craft. It would seem to be a hell of a lot easier for them to stay totally invisible to us, and one would assume that that kind of tech would be developed quicker then the antigravity ray...

My take on sightings: 9/8 the sightings are faked, 3/4 of what is left, are experimental earthly craft, and 3/4 of what is left from that, are equipment malfunction and products of imagination, what is left, i would leave as UFO investigation-worthy, but still it nowhere near guarantees that those wont be a physical phenomenon, or won't fall in another otherwise explicable phenomenon.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

Anyway what I have to say about this site is that you have to prove with your mind, what you've experienced with your body (Ground it in reality, like an errant balloon floating off in any direction the wind takes it).

Which is exactly what I was getting at.
There are hundreds of sites out there where people believe in UFOs. A science site is not a likely place to find those people.

Originally Posted by wddycus

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history. We have learn so much in just the past 50 years. If another world started 1 billion years ahead of us just think where they would be. Some of our Universes are 1 to 5 billion years older then us and maybe they did not have to start over 2 or 3 times like we did. Their are so much of the unknown still to be Discover and so little time for each person to contribute to this melting pot we are all in.

If you do the math, you might not find it as likely. Just to contact a planet 1 million light years away would take...1 million light years. Realistic travel time would take much, much longer than that. Are humans even going to be around in 1 million years?

[Moontanman]

While I like this thread i have already addressed many of the reasons UFOs cannot be real alien space craft or that they require technology far in advance of our own in another thread. If we are to study this or any phenomenon you first have to find information. Sightings that contain very little information other than I saw something odd in the sky cannot be investigated with any real certainty. But there are sightings that defy any real explanation and have an embarrassing amount of information. These sightings are what we need to really be investigating. As for spinning UFOs, the first reported UFOs were not characterized as even being disk shaped much less spinning. I think the idea of throwing a hub cap or a Frisbee is the root of the spinning UFO. When I hear the UFO was spinning I immediately become cautious as to the veracity of the sighting. I don't discount it completely but it does raise flags. Too bad I can't make a living investigating UFOs, at the very least I would be totally impartial.

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by alexander

I was reading through, figured i'd express my opinion on some of these things


You know, it's not that hard to believe in god at this time in history either, doesn't make it any more real, nor does it mean that we should readily believe in anything. Honestly, i don't have a problem with either people, but if you are trying to keep an "open" mind, then you can not discount the possibility that UFOs may not quite be real either...

Having that said my view on this phenomenon:

There there are over 100 billion galaxies in our visible universe, each contains anywhere from 10 million to 1 trillion stars, each star may have up to, and probably over 10 planets. This means that there are, for sake of discussion, using average amount of stars in a cluster: solar systems out there... thats 10^20 systems that may potentially have at least one planet that is capable of sustaining life, we are one of 10^20, and admit it, there is a hell of a chance there fore being more then one more earthy planets out there. And that is a hell of a chance... Having that said, touching on the topic of this "UFO" phenomenon. Why do we always assume that "alien" means that they are a supremely more intelligent then us? Why do we think that some bored out of their mind aliens will jump into a circular UFO and fly a gazillion light years to observe us? Do you really think we are THAT special? and why is it most of the time around object that spins? we send lots of crap to space, do you recall anything being disk-like? wait, oh right, we tend to send missile-like things up there, because of air friction, and such.... And another thing, why do we assume that they are always a superior race that can easily wipe us off the earth, but they just dont want to intervene in our development. If there were other civilizations out there, that frequently visit, don't you think that by now we woulda gotten enslaved or something, or are all aliens somehow nice? And lastly, if you give them the kinds of technologies that change the physics, such as antigravity, why then do we still see their craft. It would seem to be a hell of a lot easier for them to stay totally invisible to us, and one would assume that that kind of tech would be developed quicker then the antigravity ray...

My take on sightings: 9/8 the sightings are faked, 3/4 of what is left, are experimental earthly craft, and 3/4 of what is left from that, are equipment malfunction and products of imagination, what is left, i would leave as UFO investigation-worthy, but still it nowhere near guarantees that those wont be a physical phenomenon, or won't fall in another otherwise explicable phenomenon.

With regards to not seeing UFO's, scientists in Pune (India Daily report from February 16th, 2005)from the Indian Defence Research Organization, state that they could be invisible through electromagnetic flux influences, which slip on exit and entry to the atmosphere (According to the report the Russians are working on similar stealth technology at present).

As for coming here - life draws life (If we conquer space, then dead planets won't be our objective, except as hopping off points to other places or for resources and then not large scale colonization). What propulsion they use to get here is as likely to be understandable to us as plane mechanics are to people living in mud huts - please don't be so arrogant as to believe our primitive knowledge and technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread because it isn't and stops us advancing as much as the inquisition stopped people like Gallileo.

Perhaps we are enslaved but like in The Matrix, maybe the control is so subtle we miss it. Other scenarios exist apart from large scale invasion - for instance scientific investigation that leaves the majority of the population ignorant and a small amount prodded and mystified as to what is going on (Do bird watchers paint themselves dayglo pink and jump up and down shouting at the birds to show themselves? No, because it doesn't work: Do weekend hunters? Yes because they want to be seen by fellow humans, not mistaken for game and shot). Motive leads to certain actions and away from others. Would the Klingons have developed their own technology for space travel? No, they would have probably stolen it unlike more advanced races but being technologically advanced doesn't stop warfare, just makes it more sophisticated).

As for God - it depends upon what you define it or him/her as. If it's all existence, then God is within you and all around you. If you think of God as some external force, then you're on the way to avoiding responsibility for your own life and becoming a follower, not self-led (Someone to blame for your own failures). Well that's my opinion anyway.