The Gods

[Garry Denke]

I believe in all the Gods of the Old Testament.
These are the Gods of King James Version.
But which Gods do you guys believe in?
If any Gods of course. Thanks a lot!

G D

[modest]

Elohim can be plural in Hebrew hence some interesting translations. You will, however, notice that in the original hebrew it is treated as if singular even if it is plural. For example, the first three words of the bible: "breshit bara' elohim" have the plural "God" or "elohim" but have the singular verb attached to it "bara'" (which is to create or form). If indeed elohim was meant to be plural the verb following it would be "bar'u" which is the plural form. This is not the case.

Also, adam means man or mankind in Hebrew. You thought it was a last name in a previous thread because you misunderstood Gen 5:2 where it says God called people "adam". I don't mean to knock King James (although you'd think Guy Fawkes must have had his religious reasons), but sometimes knowing the Hebrew can help.

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

-modest

[Garry Denke]

Originally Posted by modest

Elohim can be plural in Hebrew hence some interesting translations. You will, however, notice that in the original hebrew it is treated as if singular even if it is plural. For example, the first three words of the bible: "breshit bara' elohim" have the plural "God" or "elohim" but have the singular verb attached to it "bara'" (which is to create or form). If indeed elohim was meant to be plural the verb following it would be "bar'u" which is the plural form. This is not the case.

Also, adam means man or mankind in Hebrew. You thought it was a last name in a previous thread because you misunderstood Gen 5:2 where it says God called people "adam". I don't mean to knock King James (although you'd think Guy Fawkes must have had his religious reasons), but sometimes knowing the Hebrew can help.

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

-modest

Thank you for all of the examples other than these two (2) sentences specifically linked in the top post twice, modest; Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness. Do your people want to try and singular these Gods in these two (2) two sentences in Hebrew, or do you want our people to try and singular these Gods in these two (2) sentences in Hebrew.

Old story, New names

Thanks!

G D

[modest]

Originally Posted by Garry Denke

Thank you for all of the examples other than these two (2) sentences specifically linked in the top post twice, modest; Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness. Do your people want to try and singular these Gods in these two (2) two sentences in Hebrew, or do you want our people to try and singular these Gods in these two (2) sentences in Hebrew.

Yes Garry, the word in your example is elohim. It is a plural word in Hebrew regardless of the context. It is plural for "eloah" which you can also find (much less often) in the bible. As I said, this odd plurality leads to some odd translations in the King James version. This is exactly true of 1 Sa 4:8, your example. As I pointed out, the context of the word elohim in the hebrew script is where you should look to see if it is meant to be plural or not. The King James translation is simply not reliable on this. If you actually care to listen to what I'm saying and apply it in some sort of intelligent way then I'll give you the Hebrew for 1 Samuel 4:8...



along with a Hebrew dictionary:

http://fdierfree.free.fr/StrongOT.pdf

Now if you want to know the truth of things you don't have to take my word for it - you can translate it yourself.

Originally Posted by Garry Denke

these two (2) sentences in Hebrew

I'm not sure why that's important; but, as you can clearly see - it is only one sentence in Hebrew.

-modest

[modest]

Originally Posted by modest

the context of the word elohim in the hebrew script is where you should look to see if it is meant to be plural or not. The King James translation is simply not reliable on this.

I just took the time to translate it and yes, god is plural in this context. The adjective great (mighty, האדירים) is plural as well as the pronouns they and these.

It may interest you that the exact same word used for god/gods "ha-elohim" or האלהים is most certainly singular in 1 Deut. 4:35 in the very same chapter. You can easily tell from the context without translating it.

In any case, this philistine you're quoting does seem to think there is more than one god of Abraham. Is that a belief you share Garry? That sounds like what you're saying. I apologize for changing the subject from that to the language of the thing. A-theistic as I am, my interest is mostly the language and the history.

-modest

[Garry Denke]

Originally Posted by modest

Yes Garry, the word in your example is elohim. It is a plural word in Hebrew regardless of the context. It is plural for "eloah" which you can also find (much less often) in the bible. As I said, this odd plurality leads to some odd translations in the King James version. This is exactly true of 1 Sa 4:8, your example. As I pointed out, the context of the word elohim in the hebrew script is where you should look to see if it is meant to be plural or not. The King James translation is simply not reliable on this. If you actually care to listen to what I'm saying and apply it in some sort of intelligent way then I'll give you the Hebrew for 1 Samuel 4:8...



along with a Hebrew dictionary:

http://fdierfree.free.fr/StrongOT.pdf

Now if you want to know the truth of things you don't have to take my word for it - you can translate it yourself.

I'm not sure why that's important; but, as you can clearly see - it is only one sentence in Hebrew.

-modest

What about these 12 odd 24 Gods modest? these are merely more odd bible scholars?

1 Samuel 4:8

American Standard Version
Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all manner of plagues in the wilderness.

Bible in Basic English
Trouble is ours! Who will give us salvation from the hands of these great Gods? These are the Gods who sent all sorts of blows on the Egyptians in the waste land.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Woe to us: for there was no such great joy yesterday and the day before: Woe to us. Who shall deliver us from the hand of these high Gods? these are the Gods that struck Egypt with all the plagues in the desert.

Darby Bible Translation
Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with every plague in the wilderness.

English Revised Version
Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all manner of plagues in the wilderness.

GOD'S WORD Translation
We're in trouble now! Who can save us from the power of these mighty Gods? These are the Gods who struck the Egyptians with every kind of plague in the desert.

New American Standard Bible
"Woe to us! Who shall deliver us from the hand of these mighty Gods? These are the Gods who smote the Egyptians with all kinds of plagues in the wilderness.

Revised Standard Version
Woe to us! Who can deliver us from the power of these mighty Gods? These are the Gods who smote the Egyptians with every sort of plague in the wilderness.

Today's New International Version
Woe to us! Who will deliver us from the hand of these mighty Gods? They are the Gods who struck the Egyptians with all kinds of plagues in the wilderness.

Webster's Bible Translation
Woe to us! Who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.

World English Bible
Woe to us! Who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? These are the Gods that struck the Egyptians with all kinds of plagues in the wilderness.

Young's Literal Translation
Woe to us, who doth deliver us out of the hand of these honourable Gods? these are the Gods who are smiting the Egyptians with every plague in the wilderness.

1 Samuel 4, 9-11

King James Version
Be strong, and quit yourselves like men, O ye Philistines, that ye be not servants unto the Hebrews, as they have been to you: quit yourselves like men, and fight. And the Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten, and they fled every man into his tent: and there was a very great slaughter; for there fell of Israel thirty thousand footmen. And the ark of God was taken; and the two (2) sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain.

Thanks!

G D

[Garry Denke]

Originally Posted by modest

I just took the time to translate it and yes, god is plural in this context. The adjective great (mighty, האדירים) is plural as well as the pronouns they and these.

It may interest you that the exact same word used for god/gods "ha-elohim" or האלהים is most certainly singular in 1 Deut. 4:35 in the very same chapter. You can easily tell from the context without translating it.

In any case, this philistine you're quoting does seem to think there is more than one god of Abraham. Is that a belief you share Garry? That sounds like what you're saying. I apologize for changing the subject from that to the language of the thing. A-theistic as I am, my interest is mostly the language and the history.

-modest

Jesus Christ! modest I was writing the above and posted it before I saw your post. Sorry! Well since I spent so much time constructing it how about keeping it there. Okay? Actually the King of the Jews wrote 1 Samuel 4:8 and 9-11, etc, quotations from Author.

1 Samuel 4:1
And the Word of Samuel came to all Israel.

The Gods

G D